Sanyo HD1 footage!

Joseph Aurili · February 15th, 2006, 02:20 PM

Wouldn't 25Mb/s H264 be excellent quality? Even better then HDV?

Wayne Morellini · February 15th, 2006, 03:33 PM

Yeah, it should get rid of a lot of motion degradation. The problem with motion, and new data, is that the base line bandwidth matters much more than in other issues in compression. Seeing the amount of problems in the non moving images brings me to believe that maybe 25Mb/s is needed, more than 15Mb/s(+) that Ambarella is talking about. The smarter routines in h264 should handle motion better, but what about things with complex movements like waves, pond ripples and bright windy leaves (like we have here)? For new data better base compression of the primary frame also would help. But I wish camera companies would wake up and give us compressed bayer and 10-12bit pixels, that allows us to shoot lazy, that's real professional quality. Not 4:2:0.

David Kennett · February 15th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Joseph,

You only have a few weeks to eat your Cinnamon Toast Crunch!

Joseph Aurili · February 15th, 2006, 03:54 PM

Thanks David. I did not even notice that. Good thing this is not SD we are dealing with! ;)

Dennis Vogel · February 15th, 2006, 04:46 PM

I gotta say, I'm not impressed with the video quality of these shots. Maybe it's my monitor or maybe it's my eyes. This looks no better than DV to me.

Good luck.

Dennis

Joseph Aurili · February 15th, 2006, 05:10 PM

I hooked up the camera to a SD TV via svideo. I don't have a HD TV where I am now. In a dark room I could not tell the difference between the live video and the played back recorded video. When I used a bright light I still did not notice a difference in image quality. I did notice that bright areas of the image would flicker a lot on playback, but would not live.

Graham Jones · February 15th, 2006, 06:37 PM

Joseph, I assume the ability to switch the output between PAL and NTSC applies to transferring to PC (as well as Composite/SVideo/Component)?

Joseph Aurili · February 15th, 2006, 07:14 PM

I'm not positive. I believe the setting is only to the video output. When conected to the computer via USB, I am sure it is just a file transfer method. In the manual the setting is under "TV OUTPUT SETTING".

Tom Roper · February 15th, 2006, 09:15 PM

My PC doesn't have the codec to play MP4 but the LinkPlayer2 played them fine, even better because I could view them on 720p Samsung 50 inch DLP.

The mpeg4 compression artifacts are not so bad. The worst part is simply the limited latitude range of the Sanyo imaging sensor. Blacks are wholly crushed, highlights are blown out, and oversaturated colors substitute for a complete absence of shadow detail. It also perplexed me how one area of the scene could seem crisp and in focus, and another from about the same focal plane blurred. You can see this phenomena in the courtyard scene if you look at the red brick wall. Panning the little cam illustrates another problem, the difficulty of avoiding shaky handheld video. Not to be too critical, this is a pocket cam, not a varicam.

Graham Jones · February 16th, 2006, 04:47 AM

New development in relation to this 2gb vs. 4gb question.

As you will remember, I was concerned whether the cam could support 4gb - simply because of the way a Sanyo rep was talking about 1 or 2gb.

The rep wasn't seeming to acknowledge you could simply use a higher memory card. All publicity seems to follow this lead, never suggesting that a user could go to higher memory than 2gb.

I was delighted when Joseph said he inserted a 4gb card no problem.

I was considering buying a Sanyo HD1 and 4GB card that were actually bundled as a single sale on ebay and was making enquiries to the seller.

I know a lot of people at dvinfo.net have problems with e-bay - I read a great dvinfo.net thread yesterday. Obviously this thread is not the place to go into that. I am simply excerpting an e-mail from seller so people know there remains some question whether the cam can do 4gb.

"Please accept our apologizing that the item is now out listing because it
doesn't support 4Gb SD Card at this moment. We have another package NEW
Sanyo Xacti VPC DMX-HD1 Camera G+ 2G Highspeed SD on list."

Personally, my bet is that the cam can do 4gb - based on Joseph's report.

However, the only reason I can think the seller made this change was a customer saying the 4gb card doesn't work.

Jorge Gil · February 16th, 2006, 05:11 AM

Graham, perhaps the seller said that is because Sanyo doesn't support OFICIALLY 4Gb Sd cards just because 4 Gb Cards are NOT OFICIALLY SD standard compiliant cards. As i read about SD , the 2 GB is a barrier with this standard.

They have to format in FAT 32 the 4 Gb cards in order to get that capacity, and many devices work under FAT16 so are not compatible.

In the link i posted before

http://www.japaninc.net/newsletters/...gw&issue=222#2

you can read the Sanyo support "unofficially" 4gb cards and will suppport SDHC standard, which will not have that 4 gb limit.

-start wonder -

I bet the important point for a 4Gb card is only the reading/writing speed, it has to be enought to the 9mb/s bitrate the HD1 outputs.

Probably the seller readed sanyo's literature and saw there supported cards are UP to 2Gb, and as a good seller (or avoiding future returns/problems/negative feedback), decided to do not sell 4gb cards.

If a ebay customer actually said it not works perhaps it was not an adequated x factor speed

- finish wonder -

With time, we will see confirmated this, i suppose.....

Graham Jones · February 16th, 2006, 05:21 AM

That article clears it up. Thanks!

Graham Jones · February 16th, 2006, 06:04 AM

I've heard from a number of sources that the Japan release date is Feb 25.

I've also heard a few people, including you Joseph, talk about it currently being available in Hong Kong.

If a camera designed in Japan is available elsewhere before it's available in Japan, is it grey market?

Or might there be other countries where it would retail earlier.

In other words - did you buy it in a shop Joseph?!

Thanks!!

Frank Klein · February 16th, 2006, 06:11 AM

Regarding Speed of SD cards:
Highest HD1 Datarate:
9Mbit=1.125MB/s

SD cards speeds are between 33x (normal cheap ones) and 133x (expensive ultra highspeed), i.e. 33*150KB=4.950MB/s so even the slowest sd cards has more than 4 times the bandwith which is needed.

2gb sd cards are usually used with FAT16 which has this 2GB limit. 4GB sd cards therefor need to be formatted in FAT32, but even with FAT32, filesize is limited to 4GB, so future 8GB cards need to support another filesystem or split the files.
As just 4GB sd cards need FAT32, some devices don't support it because it's not much needed. CF card devices usually support FAT32 to be able of using this nice small CF microdrives which are often >2GB.

Joseph Aurili · February 16th, 2006, 07:59 AM

Graham. I order from a seller on eBay. It was delivered direct from Hong Kong. It could very well be considered "grey market", but that does not mean it is not identical to the camera that will be released later this month in Japan. I am not sure how they are selling it so early. They obviously need to be in production way before the release date. Perhaps they are just selling them before they are supose to. The insruction manual says printed in Japan. Camera says made in Japan. Model VPC-HD1EX.

February 15th, 2006, 03:47 PM	#153
David Kennett Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio Posts: 407	Joseph, You only have a few weeks to eat your Cinnamon Toast Crunch! __________________ Dave

February 15th, 2006, 06:37 PM	#157
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Joseph, I assume the ability to switch the output between PAL and NTSC applies to transferring to PC (as well as Composite/SVideo/Component)? __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 16th, 2006, 04:47 AM	#160
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	New development in relation to this 2gb vs. 4gb question. As you will remember, I was concerned whether the cam could support 4gb - simply because of the way a Sanyo rep was talking about 1 or 2gb. The rep wasn't seeming to acknowledge you could simply use a higher memory card. All publicity seems to follow this lead, never suggesting that a user could go to higher memory than 2gb. I was delighted when Joseph said he inserted a 4gb card no problem. I was considering buying a Sanyo HD1 and 4GB card that were actually bundled as a single sale on ebay and was making enquiries to the seller. I know a lot of people at dvinfo.net have problems with e-bay - I read a great dvinfo.net thread yesterday. Obviously this thread is not the place to go into that. I am simply excerpting an e-mail from seller so people know there remains some question whether the cam can do 4gb. "Please accept our apologizing that the item is now out listing because it doesn't support 4Gb SD Card at this moment. We have another package NEW Sanyo Xacti VPC DMX-HD1 Camera G+ 2G Highspeed SD on list." Personally, my bet is that the cam can do 4gb - based on Joseph's report. However, the only reason I can think the seller made this change was a customer saying the 4gb card doesn't work. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 16th, 2006, 05:21 AM	#162
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	That article clears it up. Thanks! __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 16th, 2006, 06:04 AM	#163
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	I've heard from a number of sources that the Japan release date is Feb 25. I've also heard a few people, including you Joseph, talk about it currently being available in Hong Kong. If a camera designed in Japan is available elsewhere before it's available in Japan, is it grey market? Or might there be other countries where it would retail earlier. In other words - did you buy it in a shop Joseph?! Thanks!! __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 15th, 2006, 02:20 PM	#151
Joseph Aurili Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 326	Wouldn't 25Mb/s H264 be excellent quality? Even better then HDV?

February 15th, 2006, 03:33 PM	#152
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yeah, it should get rid of a lot of motion degradation. The problem with motion, and new data, is that the base line bandwidth matters much more than in other issues in compression. Seeing the amount of problems in the non moving images brings me to believe that maybe 25Mb/s is needed, more than 15Mb/s(+) that Ambarella is talking about. The smarter routines in h264 should handle motion better, but what about things with complex movements like waves, pond ripples and bright windy leaves (like we have here)? For new data better base compression of the primary frame also would help. But I wish camera companies would wake up and give us compressed bayer and 10-12bit pixels, that allows us to shoot lazy, that's real professional quality. Not 4:2:0.

February 15th, 2006, 03:54 PM	#154
Joseph Aurili Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 326	Thanks David. I did not even notice that. Good thing this is not SD we are dealing with! ;)

February 15th, 2006, 04:46 PM	#155
Dennis Vogel Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 409	I gotta say, I'm not impressed with the video quality of these shots. Maybe it's my monitor or maybe it's my eyes. This looks no better than DV to me. Good luck. Dennis

February 15th, 2006, 05:10 PM	#156
Joseph Aurili Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 326	I hooked up the camera to a SD TV via svideo. I don't have a HD TV where I am now. In a dark room I could not tell the difference between the live video and the played back recorded video. When I used a bright light I still did not notice a difference in image quality. I did notice that bright areas of the image would flicker a lot on playback, but would not live.

February 15th, 2006, 07:14 PM	#158
Joseph Aurili Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 326	I'm not positive. I believe the setting is only to the video output. When conected to the computer via USB, I am sure it is just a file transfer method. In the manual the setting is under "TV OUTPUT SETTING".

February 15th, 2006, 09:15 PM	#159
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	My PC doesn't have the codec to play MP4 but the LinkPlayer2 played them fine, even better because I could view them on 720p Samsung 50 inch DLP. The mpeg4 compression artifacts are not so bad. The worst part is simply the limited latitude range of the Sanyo imaging sensor. Blacks are wholly crushed, highlights are blown out, and oversaturated colors substitute for a complete absence of shadow detail. It also perplexed me how one area of the scene could seem crisp and in focus, and another from about the same focal plane blurred. You can see this phenomena in the courtyard scene if you look at the red brick wall. Panning the little cam illustrates another problem, the difficulty of avoiding shaky handheld video. Not to be too critical, this is a pocket cam, not a varicam.

February 16th, 2006, 05:11 AM	#161
Jorge Gil New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6	Graham, perhaps the seller said that is because Sanyo doesn't support OFICIALLY 4Gb Sd cards just because 4 Gb Cards are NOT OFICIALLY SD standard compiliant cards. As i read about SD , the 2 GB is a barrier with this standard. They have to format in FAT 32 the 4 Gb cards in order to get that capacity, and many devices work under FAT16 so are not compatible. In the link i posted before http://www.japaninc.net/newsletters/...gw&issue=222#2 you can read the Sanyo support "unofficially" 4gb cards and will suppport SDHC standard, which will not have that 4 gb limit. -start wonder - I bet the important point for a 4Gb card is only the reading/writing speed, it has to be enought to the 9mb/s bitrate the HD1 outputs. Probably the seller readed sanyo's literature and saw there supported cards are UP to 2Gb, and as a good seller (or avoiding future returns/problems/negative feedback), decided to do not sell 4gb cards. If a ebay customer actually said it not works perhaps it was not an adequated x factor speed - finish wonder - With time, we will see confirmated this, i suppose.....

February 16th, 2006, 06:11 AM	#164
Frank Klein New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5	SD card infos Regarding Speed of SD cards: Highest HD1 Datarate: 9Mbit=1.125MB/s SD cards speeds are between 33x (normal cheap ones) and 133x (expensive ultra highspeed), i.e. 33*150KB=4.950MB/s so even the slowest sd cards has more than 4 times the bandwith which is needed. 2gb sd cards are usually used with FAT16 which has this 2GB limit. 4GB sd cards therefor need to be formatted in FAT32, but even with FAT32, filesize is limited to 4GB, so future 8GB cards need to support another filesystem or split the files. As just 4GB sd cards need FAT32, some devices don't support it because it's not much needed. CF card devices usually support FAT32 to be able of using this nice small CF microdrives which are often >2GB.

February 16th, 2006, 07:59 AM	#165
Joseph Aurili Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 326	Graham. I order from a seller on eBay. It was delivered direct from Hong Kong. It could very well be considered "grey market", but that does not mean it is not identical to the camera that will be released later this month in Japan. I am not sure how they are selling it so early. They obviously need to be in production way before the release date. Perhaps they are just selling them before they are supose to. The insruction manual says printed in Japan. Camera says made in Japan. Model VPC-HD1EX.