Analog conversion using Canopus at DVinfo.net

Are Knudsen · January 9th, 2007, 09:32 AM

Hello:

I am trying to convert analog Video8 films to DV using a Canopus ADVC 110 and a PC (Adobe Premier Elements). Is there a way to fine-tune capture so as to remove image flicker, mostly along bottom edge of footage? Put another way: is it possible to make a clean capture of Video8, or is image
flicker a by-product of conversion? Or is it caused by dirty or filthy image head drum on the the now ageing Sony Video8 camcorder?

Grateful for any advice for best capture!

Are

Harm Millaard · January 9th, 2007, 10:10 AM

It is a by-product of analog recordings. But don't worry about it if you are going to play the end result on a CRT TV. It will fall outside of the safe area. If you are using LCD or Plasma for playback, better tape the analog material to DV first and capture from DV.

Dave Stern · January 9th, 2007, 10:19 AM

Are - it is as above, e.g. due to the analog source, and the above is accurate re CRT vs. LCD / plasma. This would also apply to PC or web -based playback (e.g. if you are going to play this back on a PC or post on the 'net for viewing you may want to crop the noise out).

If you decide that you do want to remove it, you may want to crop it when you do the encoding (or editing) rather than retaping / recapturing it.

What will you be doing with the material after you've captured it, and what is your destination delivery mechanism? What software will you be using?

Also, when cropping, keep in mind that you will want to crop in multiples of 4 bits/rows to minimize any lossiness in your final product, and you want to be careful if you resize the final product not to change the aspect ratio of your material (e.g. if you are going to resize back to 'full' size, crop the bottom and also crop one side so that the cropped aspect ratio of your picture is the same as the original).

What do you have planned once you capture?

Kevin Randolph · January 9th, 2007, 10:31 AM

I'm going to have to chime in and agree with Harm. I used the Canopus 110 ADVC last spring for a lot of Digital 8 conversion and I had one tape in-particular that gave so much static that it caused a vertical scroll problem when run through the 110. When I transfered that footage first to miniDV and then into the computer via firewire from the camera, the problem was fixed entirely.

In the spirit of saving time, I would crop (proportionately as mentioned earlier) if the quality is good enough to satisfy your eye. But if you come across some hard core static, transfer to MiniDV first and then capture.

Also, the weird thing about this vertical scroll problem was that it did not happen on the digital 8 tape, only when the footage was captured through the Canopus 110.

Hope this helps somewhat...

Richard Alvarez · January 9th, 2007, 10:45 AM

Or you could introduce a TBC (time base corrector) into the capture. I think the Canopus 330 (or is it 310? I forget) has a time base corrector in it.

Ervin Farkas · January 9th, 2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harm Millaard

It is a by-product of analog recordings. But don't worry about it if you are going to play the end result on a CRT TV. It will fall outside of the safe area. If you are using LCD or Plasma for playback, better tape the analog material to DV first and capture from DV.

Sorry Harm, I have to disagree. "Today's TV sets can be based on newer fixed-pixel technologies like liquid crystal displays (LCDs), and those with CRTs have much less image drift with crystal-based timing, and so can have perfect image placement. Nevertheless, these sets when used for TV must overscan the image so that older programming will be framed as intended to be viewed. Even high-definition television (HDTV) sets overscan, although implementation of this is inconsistent. It is common to see HDTV sets crop out text and station logos on HDTV programming. In response to different picture ratios, some broadcasters crop, magnify, or stretch the original video, further distorting the image a HDTV set may receive." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overscan for more.

Are, you might consider capturing your analog 8 tapes using a digital 8 camcorder... just ask around, chances are a neighbor or friend has one laying around unused.

Dave Stern · January 9th, 2007, 10:59 AM

Are - one other thing - if you can post a frame or two of the 'flicker' you are describing, that may help clarify what to do to get the best picture possible (e.g. what the 'flicker' really is and therefore how to address it as best is possible).

Harm Millaard · January 9th, 2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas

Sorry Harm, I have to disagree. "Today's TV sets can be based on newer fixed-pixel technologies like liquid crystal displays (LCDs), and those with CRTs have much less image drift with crystal-based timing, and so can have perfect image placement. Nevertheless, these sets when used for TV must overscan the image so that older programming will be framed as intended to be viewed.

The overscanning can very, I agree, but usually it is between 3 and 10%, far more than the usual very few scan lines from analog capture that show artifacts. Even 4 scan lines is less than 1%, which will definitely fall outside the safe zone. The image placement, referred to in your post, does not mean that there is no overscanning. That is a by-product of CRT's.

Are Knudsen · January 9th, 2007, 12:31 PM

Hello - thanks for all the good advice on conversion.

I think I will try to go for the Digital8 conversion: as I understant it, a digital8 camcorder will digitise the analog8 footage on-the-fly and can be transferred to the PC as DV. In Norway, a digital8 camcorder is cheaper than a Canpus ADVC 110 so, going for this option would probably bee cheaper too.

Will all Digital8 recorders to the trick, such as the one below?? (Sony DSCR-TRV270)

http://www.pixmania.com/no/no/82410/...ml#accessoires

Thanks,

- Are

Bill Mecca · January 9th, 2007, 12:36 PM

You will lhave to check the specs on the newer digital 8 camcorders, not all of the current model(s) have this feature.

Are Knudsen · January 9th, 2007, 04:53 PM

Just in case I missed something: the video8 casette is inserted into a Digital8 camcorder which outputs a DV signal - captured by PC. In this set-up the canopus is superfluous, yes?

I understand that this feature is only possible in some, not all, Digital8 camcorders.

Thanks again,

Are (slow learner)

Dave Stern · January 9th, 2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Are Knudsen

Just in case I missed something: the video8 casette is inserted into a Digital8 camcorder which outputs a DV signal - captured by PC. In this set-up the canopus is superfluous, yes?

I understand that this feature is only possible in some, not all, Digital8 camcorders.

Thanks again,

Are (slow learner)

correct.

in this case, the camcorder is doing the analog to digital conversion, same as the canopus would do.

just check the user manual before you buy the camcorder. it would be called analog pass through or analog / digital conversion.

one note, though is that the canopus has audio / video lock, which locks the audio signal to the video signal so there's no drift where the two get out of sync. I think for the most part, the camcorders do an ok job, but may not have this exact feature. I'd recommend buying the camcorder from some place where you have a 30 day return and try 1 or 2 tapes first. then, go to the end of the converted file, and make sure the audio and video are still in sync. I've used the advc100 for many many tapes like this and it does a great job, but the camcorder may be fine too.

also, check out scenalyzer live (I think it's scenalyzer.com) - it's a good capture program and not too expensive.

Alessandro Machi · January 10th, 2007, 02:14 AM

The digital 8 camcorder is probably your best bet.

After setting the camcorder switch to the VCR setting, access the menu settings and go to video playback. There should be a TBC setting. Keep this in the on mode. There is also a D.N.R. setting. I would probably keep this off because it will probably induce color smearing.

The problem is the D.N.R. in the camcorders is very basic, it is either on or off, with no in between settings.

I have done a lot of work with D.N.R. over the past 10 years in S-VHS and in 8mm video. D.N.R. when only offered as an on or off option is usually better not used. It's only when specific quality settings are offered should one consider it.

My S-VHS deck has 16 settings for D.N.R. so I can always dial in the exact amount I desire, no more, no less. The same with a higher end Hi-8 machine as well, but the digital 8 camcorders already pack a lot for the money, so it's not wise to assume the D.N.R. is worth it, but I do recommend having the TBC in the on position.

Mauritius Seeger · January 15th, 2007, 08:36 PM

having gone through the same loop as you with trying to digitise old video 8 tapes i ended up returning my canopus caus it was no good and dropped frames left right and centre. the upshot is the only way to digitise properly is to use a camcorder since it has a time base corrector (TBC) built in - or at least something that deals with poor quality signals well. the more expensive canopus DV->analogue conversion box also claims to have a TBC but it's probably cheaper to just get a camcorder.

Dave Stern · January 16th, 2007, 08:10 AM

I've used the canopus advc 100 for years and it's been rock solid and very good to work with. I use this in conjunction with a vcr with noise reduction and a line based TBC as well as a separate full frame TBC from data video, and also a sima color corrector.

In general you get what you pay for (in general).

If you can find a VCR or camcorder with some of these features then they may help or you may need separate components each designed to deal with a specific issue.

it all depends what is on your source material.

also, don't forget to use good cables and use S-video where you can rather than composite.

January 9th, 2007, 09:32 AM	#1
Are Knudsen New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 9	Analog conversion using Canopus Hello: I am trying to convert analog Video8 films to DV using a Canopus ADVC 110 and a PC (Adobe Premier Elements). Is there a way to fine-tune capture so as to remove image flicker, mostly along bottom edge of footage? Put another way: is it possible to make a clean capture of Video8, or is image flicker a by-product of conversion? Or is it caused by dirty or filthy image head drum on the the now ageing Sony Video8 camcorder? Grateful for any advice for best capture! Are

January 9th, 2007, 10:31 AM	#4
Kevin Randolph Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 423	I'm going to have to chime in and agree with Harm. I used the Canopus 110 ADVC last spring for a lot of Digital 8 conversion and I had one tape in-particular that gave so much static that it caused a vertical scroll problem when run through the 110. When I transfered that footage first to miniDV and then into the computer via firewire from the camera, the problem was fixed entirely. In the spirit of saving time, I would crop (proportionately as mentioned earlier) if the quality is good enough to satisfy your eye. But if you come across some hard core static, transfer to MiniDV first and then capture. Also, the weird thing about this vertical scroll problem was that it did not happen on the digital 8 tape, only when the footage was captured through the Canopus 110. Hope this helps somewhat... __________________ "... the drama is on your doorstep..." - John Grierson www.grvideo.net

January 9th, 2007, 12:31 PM	#9
Are Knudsen New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 9	RE: analogue capture using Canopus Hello - thanks for all the good advice on conversion. I think I will try to go for the Digital8 conversion: as I understant it, a digital8 camcorder will digitise the analog8 footage on-the-fly and can be transferred to the PC as DV. In Norway, a digital8 camcorder is cheaper than a Canpus ADVC 110 so, going for this option would probably bee cheaper too. Will all Digital8 recorders to the trick, such as the one below?? (Sony DSCR-TRV270) http://www.pixmania.com/no/no/82410/...ml#accessoires Thanks, - Are

January 9th, 2007, 12:36 PM	#10
Bill Mecca Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 475	You will lhave to check the specs on the newer digital 8 camcorders, not all of the current model(s) have this feature. __________________ Award-winning Pine Barrens Documentary! Video, Audio, Music & More

January 9th, 2007, 04:53 PM	#11
Are Knudsen New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 9	Just in case... Just in case I missed something: the video8 casette is inserted into a Digital8 camcorder which outputs a DV signal - captured by PC. In this set-up the canopus is superfluous, yes? I understand that this feature is only possible in some, not all, Digital8 camcorders. Thanks again, Are (slow learner)

January 9th, 2007, 10:10 AM	#2
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	It is a by-product of analog recordings. But don't worry about it if you are going to play the end result on a CRT TV. It will fall outside of the safe area. If you are using LCD or Plasma for playback, better tape the analog material to DV first and capture from DV.

January 9th, 2007, 10:19 AM	#3
Dave Stern Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 391	Are - it is as above, e.g. due to the analog source, and the above is accurate re CRT vs. LCD / plasma. This would also apply to PC or web -based playback (e.g. if you are going to play this back on a PC or post on the 'net for viewing you may want to crop the noise out). If you decide that you do want to remove it, you may want to crop it when you do the encoding (or editing) rather than retaping / recapturing it. What will you be doing with the material after you've captured it, and what is your destination delivery mechanism? What software will you be using? Also, when cropping, keep in mind that you will want to crop in multiples of 4 bits/rows to minimize any lossiness in your final product, and you want to be careful if you resize the final product not to change the aspect ratio of your material (e.g. if you are going to resize back to 'full' size, crop the bottom and also crop one side so that the cropped aspect ratio of your picture is the same as the original). What do you have planned once you capture?

January 9th, 2007, 10:45 AM	#5
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Or you could introduce a TBC (time base corrector) into the capture. I think the Canopus 330 (or is it 310? I forget) has a time base corrector in it.

January 9th, 2007, 10:59 AM	#7
Dave Stern Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 391	Are - one other thing - if you can post a frame or two of the 'flicker' you are describing, that may help clarify what to do to get the best picture possible (e.g. what the 'flicker' really is and therefore how to address it as best is possible).

January 10th, 2007, 02:14 AM	#13
Alessandro Machi Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, Ca USA Posts: 553	The digital 8 camcorder is probably your best bet. After setting the camcorder switch to the VCR setting, access the menu settings and go to video playback. There should be a TBC setting. Keep this in the on mode. There is also a D.N.R. setting. I would probably keep this off because it will probably induce color smearing. The problem is the D.N.R. in the camcorders is very basic, it is either on or off, with no in between settings. I have done a lot of work with D.N.R. over the past 10 years in S-VHS and in 8mm video. D.N.R. when only offered as an on or off option is usually better not used. It's only when specific quality settings are offered should one consider it. My S-VHS deck has 16 settings for D.N.R. so I can always dial in the exact amount I desire, no more, no less. The same with a higher end Hi-8 machine as well, but the digital 8 camcorders already pack a lot for the money, so it's not wise to assume the D.N.R. is worth it, but I do recommend having the TBC in the on position. __________________ https://alexlogic.blogspot.com/ Los Angeles Emmy Winner (yes, used a video edit controller and loved doing so.)

January 15th, 2007, 08:36 PM	#14
Mauritius Seeger Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London United Kingdom Posts: 77	having gone through the same loop as you with trying to digitise old video 8 tapes i ended up returning my canopus caus it was no good and dropped frames left right and centre. the upshot is the only way to digitise properly is to use a camcorder since it has a time base corrector (TBC) built in - or at least something that deals with poor quality signals well. the more expensive canopus DV->analogue conversion box also claims to have a TBC but it's probably cheaper to just get a camcorder.

January 16th, 2007, 08:10 AM	#15
Dave Stern Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 391	I've used the canopus advc 100 for years and it's been rock solid and very good to work with. I use this in conjunction with a vcr with noise reduction and a line based TBC as well as a separate full frame TBC from data video, and also a sima color corrector. In general you get what you pay for (in general). If you can find a VCR or camcorder with some of these features then they may help or you may need separate components each designed to deal with a specific issue. it all depends what is on your source material. also, don't forget to use good cables and use S-video where you can rather than composite.