Reusing tapes on the XL1

Bradley Miller · February 9th, 2002, 04:26 AM

I think after reading all of this that I will stay away from mail order and waltz right into a store selling the XL1, wave some cash in front of them and tell them to open it right then and there. I'll make a recording, rewind, make another, rewind and then make another and see how it plays. If it plays fine with no problems, the unit is sold. If it doesn't, I walk knowing I have just saved myself an assload of annoyance with a "lemon".

Ed Frazier · February 9th, 2002, 07:55 AM

Most who have experienced this interlaced video/banding problem have indicated that it was when tapes had been reused. That has not been my experience.

In the two examples that I submitted to Chris, the interlaced video *is not* data that was previously recorded in that same area of the tape, but data that was from a previous scene, recorded only minutes prior to the "glitch". Tape was not rewound or reused in any way, indicating that the data was coming from a buffer or memory area of the camera and not from the tape.

Has anyone else noticed this particular problem?

Vic, I also used a Sony D8 camera for two years in some extreme environmental conditions (high wind, blowing sand and dirt with no protection for the camera). In roughly 200 hours of taping, I never saw this banding problem and only had problems with pixelation a handful of times. Most of those were traced to edge damage on the tape. I suppose since DV tape is so much smaller, head alignment and tape tracking are much more critical.

I'm hopeful, but not confident, that my particular problem has been resolved with the recent drum assembly replacement. It will get a thorough test tomorrow.

Vic Owen · February 9th, 2002, 10:03 AM

Interesting comments, Ed. I've also seen the same stuff from the buffer interlaced when it couldn't have possibly come from the rewound data. I had some discussions with Adam Wilt back when this first started, and he also felt it was a tracking problem. At the time, I couldn't find anyone else that had experienced it to the degree that I have -- over here, in 'XL-1 Land", lots more have crawled out of the woodwork. As soon as I can struggle through this month's shooting, it's back to Canon (again).

I'm hoping that by using the Firestore that I'm anxiously awaiting this all will become somewhat moot -- at least for stationary shoots.

Yeah, I wish I could get the recording reliability of the Sony D-8 along with all the goodies on the XL-1. It would be a perfect match!

February 11th, 2002, 02:12 PM

Once more I'd like to ask.......

Chris, Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so can they respond?

Ed Frazier · February 13th, 2002, 07:21 AM

During my first test after having the drum assembly replaced by Canon, I am happy to report that no interlaced video/banding problems were experienced during three hours of recording. I did have one very brief period of pixelation lasting about five or six frames, but otherwise everything looked good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Alex Dolgin · February 13th, 2002, 07:45 AM

Very interesting, and important news. This supports my theory, that the tape is blamed unfairly most of the time, while the problem is related to heads/drums. I wish more users reported their experience here to have more data.
As far as your earlier question on D8, I beleive that the tape moves much faster in D8 cameras, and the tape is wide. So the heads have more room to play, exracting the signal. So if there is a minor clog, its effect would be smaller than in DV.
Alex

February 13th, 2002, 01:58 PM

well, there go all my theories and guesses.
man, i just hope they can fix my camera next week and let me have the same perfect luck i'd been having with my SONY TRV20 up till i dropped it for an XL1.
peace and cheese
- - scott

Chris Hurd · February 15th, 2002, 12:16 PM

To Bill Ingalls:

<< Chris, Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so can they respond? >>

Yes and no. They do monitor the board; I think they look at it once per week. Corporate policy prevents them from responding to this or any other message board, newsgroup or mailing list on the internet. I'm lobbying hard to change that.

February 9th, 2002, 07:55 AM	#47
Ed Frazier Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 343	Most who have experienced this interlaced video/banding problem have indicated that it was when tapes had been reused. That has not been my experience. In the two examples that I submitted to Chris, the interlaced video is not data that was previously recorded in that same area of the tape, but data that was from a previous scene, recorded only minutes prior to the "glitch". Tape was not rewound or reused in any way, indicating that the data was coming from a buffer or memory area of the camera and not from the tape. Has anyone else noticed this particular problem? Vic, I also used a Sony D8 camera for two years in some extreme environmental conditions (high wind, blowing sand and dirt with no protection for the camera). In roughly 200 hours of taping, I never saw this banding problem and only had problems with pixelation a handful of times. Most of those were traced to edge damage on the tape. I suppose since DV tape is so much smaller, head alignment and tape tracking are much more critical. I'm hopeful, but not confident, that my particular problem has been resolved with the recent drum assembly replacement. It will get a thorough test tomorrow. __________________ Ed Frazier

February 9th, 2002, 10:03 AM	#48
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	Interesting comments, Ed. I've also seen the same stuff from the buffer interlaced when it couldn't have possibly come from the rewound data. I had some discussions with Adam Wilt back when this first started, and he also felt it was a tracking problem. At the time, I couldn't find anyone else that had experienced it to the degree that I have -- over here, in 'XL-1 Land", lots more have crawled out of the woodwork. As soon as I can struggle through this month's shooting, it's back to Canon (again). I'm hoping that by using the Firestore that I'm anxiously awaiting this all will become somewhat moot -- at least for stationary shoots. Yeah, I wish I could get the recording reliability of the Sony D-8 along with all the goodies on the XL-1. It would be a perfect match! __________________ -- Vic Owen --

February 13th, 2002, 07:21 AM	#50
Ed Frazier Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 343	During my first test after having the drum assembly replaced by Canon, I am happy to report that no interlaced video/banding problems were experienced during three hours of recording. I did have one very brief period of pixelation lasting about five or six frames, but otherwise everything looked good. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. __________________ Ed Frazier

February 13th, 2002, 01:58 PM	#52
beeblebrox Posts: n/a	quirky tape rewrites well, there go all my theories and guesses. man, i just hope they can fix my camera next week and let me have the same perfect luck i'd been having with my SONY TRV20 up till i dropped it for an XL1. peace and cheese - - scott

February 15th, 2002, 12:16 PM	#53
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	To Bill Ingalls: << Chris, Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so can they respond? >> Yes and no. They do monitor the board; I think they look at it once per week. Corporate policy prevents them from responding to this or any other message board, newsgroup or mailing list on the internet. I'm lobbying hard to change that. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 9th, 2002, 04:26 AM	#46
Bradley Miller Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Rockwall, TX, USA Posts: 77	I think after reading all of this that I will stay away from mail order and waltz right into a store selling the XL1, wave some cash in front of them and tell them to open it right then and there. I'll make a recording, rewind, make another, rewind and then make another and see how it plays. If it plays fine with no problems, the unit is sold. If it doesn't, I walk knowing I have just saved myself an assload of annoyance with a "lemon".

February 11th, 2002, 02:12 PM	#49
bingalls Posts: n/a	Once more I'd like to ask....... Chris, Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so can they respond?

February 13th, 2002, 07:45 AM	#51
Alex Dolgin Contributor Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Lexington, Ma Posts: 286	Very interesting, and important news. This supports my theory, that the tape is blamed unfairly most of the time, while the problem is related to heads/drums. I wish more users reported their experience here to have more data. As far as your earlier question on D8, I beleive that the tape moves much faster in D8 cameras, and the tape is wide. So the heads have more room to play, exracting the signal. So if there is a minor clog, its effect would be smaller than in DV. Alex