Reusing tapes on the XL1

Edward Troxel · February 6th, 2002, 11:42 AM

Our first problem was repaired just under the initial 12 month warranty period. Repairs are then warranted for an additional 3 months. Inside the 3 months the problem had again happened. So, the second repair was inside the additional 3 month warranty period. All repairs to date have been inside the standard factory warranty.

Bradley Miller · February 6th, 2002, 03:47 PM

Can someone post some frames or a short 10 second clip of this phenomenon?

February 6th, 2002, 07:05 PM

I have the nasty stuff .... where should I post it???

I can post some frames .... even on my organization's website if we can't find a place --- let me know ....

deb

Chris Hurd · February 6th, 2002, 11:16 PM

Send 'em to me, I've got plenty of space on dvinfo.net -- that's what the site's here for.

chris@dvinfo.net

February 7th, 2002, 12:01 AM

Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so it would be nice about now for someone to respond. With three pages of responses it's odviously a hot issue with a lot of folks. I, for one, chucked my plan to reuse tapes, bought new ones that I couldn't afford based upon what I originally heard from this board. Now it appears to be camera problems which is even scarier. I've gotta believe that Canon has seen this before. Chris, do you have any connections at Canon that might shed some light on this?

Ed Frazier · February 7th, 2002, 08:20 AM

Chris, I sent you two examples of the banding problem that I've been experiencing. Thanks for offering to post some so others fortunate enough not to have this problem can see what we've been talking about.

February 7th, 2002, 08:28 PM

i've noticed most of the experiences with image banding and/or dropouts/bleedthroughs described here could be associated with shooting in the field.
then there's the example of the fellow with 5 XL1s, i assume this is a studio of some sort, and hardly any problem except the one that definitely needed an alignment.
this could be a result of temperature differences causing the heads to be out of whack ever-so-slightly as to miss the timecode and/or address tracks on the tape as the heads go whizzing by @ 1500 R.P.M. or whatever.
now, i know that if i have a kick-ass camera case then most of the professionals in this group must have cases just as capable of holding an internal temperature at least 10 degrees cooler than outside climes for more than an hour.
so to test this hypothesis, can someone that experiences this problem regularly try to first acclimate their camera to the external temperature for at least an hour or two before turning it on and see if they still have similar experience.
the reasons for my assumptions are that i have to acclimate my 8inch schmidt telescope to the outside temperature for about an hour for every 5 degrees of temperature difference in order to have stabilized images and no dew forming on the lenses, and these videocameras are way more complex mechanisms that can be noticeably sensitive to very slight infringements upon their margins of operational functionality.
i would test this theory myself on my two month old XL1 if i could get the tape transport to load a phuking tape for the love of pete!
(it's getting shipped off to service tomorrow.)
i sure hope that when it comes back alegedly fixed that i don't have this experience since i didn't see it at all during the 3 reused tapes i shot back in early january while the camera still accepted tapes one out of ten tries.
anyway, love the forum, dig the abundant advice and can't wait to produce some quality footage. . . consistently.

bye
scott lawrence
austin, texas
budding movieologist

February 8th, 2002, 08:32 AM

not sure about the temperature difference hypothesis ... I have the banding/bleedthru problem appear VERY BAD twice ... the first time was indoors ... my camera had also been indoors -- "regular" indoor temp (maybe 68-70??) .

the second time was outside and it was colder (just shot it about 10 days ago).

I also reviewed a tape I shot before that outdoor tape. I noticed a tiny TINY brief pixel problem. That tape was also taken inside/ regular temp.

I do note that these problems all occur at the beginning of the tape ... they go away after maybe 30 seconds max -- of course, that did NOT help me with the mini interviews I was doing with several people -- totally lost a few of them!!

I am getting a clip ready to send to Chris so he can post it ... thanks for that offer!! Hope it's ok to compress it down a bit -- I only have a 56 connection ... will send some still frames, too.

deb

Edward Troxel · February 8th, 2002, 10:20 AM

I am the person who has been around the 5 XL-1's. Two of the cameras are at our church and never leave the building. So, you are correct about these two. However, the other three belong to our business and are used in a variety of locations, situations, and temperatures. These range from indoor/outdoor weddings to outdoor competitions to indoor ballgames, presentations, and musicals.

The three cameras have seen a range of temperatures from, roughly, freezing (outdoor colorguard routine in November) to 100 (outdoor wedding in August) degrees. The one camera that had to be returned multple times was one that traveled a lot. The other two traveling cameras have, so far, been fine without repair. The only problems we have seen that resemble the problem described here are when the heads were out of alignment and/or dirty. It is the camera's job to completely overwrite the tape - not the tape's job to erase itself.

Chris Hurd · February 8th, 2002, 12:55 PM

Received examples from Deb and Edward. I'll get 'em posted as soon as possible. Currently I'm in between back-to-back trips; leaving on Monday for the New York DV Conference.

I think it's important to note that glitches of this type occur on any and all DV camcorders; not just the Canon XL1/XL1S.

Thanks to Deb and Edward for the examples.

Vic Owen · February 8th, 2002, 05:30 PM

I'm sure all cameras will occasionally "glitch". However, I've had them frequently happen for the first 30-45 seconds or so, up to an 8 minute episode recently. I never experienced any of these with my cheapo Sony D-8. Once, when the camera was quite new, I was blank (blue screen) for 30 minutes before it slowly filled-in, pixel by pixel. I'm pretty sure I have a lemon......

Glitches I can live with; I don't believe, however, that it's too much to expect, when spending the bucks these things cost, to have it record when you push the button.

BTW, Chris, what's the little black dot on some of the folders?

Cheers

Chris Hurd · February 8th, 2002, 07:16 PM

Vic, the little black dot tells you that you've participated in that thread. I needed a way of knowing where I've shot my mouth off and where I haven't. ;-)

Vic Owen · February 8th, 2002, 07:21 PM

OK, I get it.....more dots = bigger mouth!

thanks

February 8th, 2002, 11:20 PM

I've been reading this thread thinking that Canon is gonna get its A** sued off in a class-action suit.

I've been thinking of purchasing the XL1S, but might hold off a bit until I hear the end of this little triage! Don't really know what tapes everyone are using (although it doesn't seem it's been that wide of a variety), but this appears to be a Canon problem.

Save those ruined tapes. Is it as Chris has said: do all cameras exhibit the same kind of screw ups?

I'm sure Canon has some kind of clause in your purchase agreement that will attempt to prohibit a class-action suit, regardless if it is their problem. But faults in the assembly line have derailed more than one large behomoth! How about those Firestone tires?

Challenge them where the rubber meets the road, brothers!!

Chris Hurd · February 8th, 2002, 11:40 PM

Well, the deal is, on this board most folks are Canon owners, so you're hearing about it mostly from an XL1 point of view.

The fact is that all DV camcorders of various makes and models tend to exhibit this very problem. It's the single worst aspect of DV, in my opinion. I've heard about it on Sony cameras, Panasonic, JVC, etc. etc. It's definitely a common problem but I don't think it's a Canon-specific issue.

February 6th, 2002, 11:16 PM	#34
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Send 'em to me, I've got plenty of space on dvinfo.net -- that's what the site's here for. chris@dvinfo.net __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 7th, 2002, 08:20 AM	#36
Ed Frazier Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 343	Banding Samples Chris, I sent you two examples of the banding problem that I've been experiencing. Thanks for offering to post some so others fortunate enough not to have this problem can see what we've been talking about. __________________ Ed Frazier

February 7th, 2002, 08:28 PM	#37
beeblebrox Posts: n/a	recording anomalies associated with reused tapes i've noticed most of the experiences with image banding and/or dropouts/bleedthroughs described here could be associated with shooting in the field. then there's the example of the fellow with 5 XL1s, i assume this is a studio of some sort, and hardly any problem except the one that definitely needed an alignment. this could be a result of temperature differences causing the heads to be out of whack ever-so-slightly as to miss the timecode and/or address tracks on the tape as the heads go whizzing by @ 1500 R.P.M. or whatever. now, i know that if i have a kick-ass camera case then most of the professionals in this group must have cases just as capable of holding an internal temperature at least 10 degrees cooler than outside climes for more than an hour. so to test this hypothesis, can someone that experiences this problem regularly try to first acclimate their camera to the external temperature for at least an hour or two before turning it on and see if they still have similar experience. the reasons for my assumptions are that i have to acclimate my 8inch schmidt telescope to the outside temperature for about an hour for every 5 degrees of temperature difference in order to have stabilized images and no dew forming on the lenses, and these videocameras are way more complex mechanisms that can be noticeably sensitive to very slight infringements upon their margins of operational functionality. i would test this theory myself on my two month old XL1 if i could get the tape transport to load a phuking tape for the love of pete! (it's getting shipped off to service tomorrow.) i sure hope that when it comes back alegedly fixed that i don't have this experience since i didn't see it at all during the 3 reused tapes i shot back in early january while the camera still accepted tapes one out of ten tries. anyway, love the forum, dig the abundant advice and can't wait to produce some quality footage. . . consistently. bye scott lawrence austin, texas budding movieologist

February 8th, 2002, 12:55 PM	#40
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Received examples from Deb and Edward. I'll get 'em posted as soon as possible. Currently I'm in between back-to-back trips; leaving on Monday for the New York DV Conference. I think it's important to note that glitches of this type occur on any and all DV camcorders; not just the Canon XL1/XL1S. Thanks to Deb and Edward for the examples. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 8th, 2002, 05:30 PM	#41
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	I'm sure all cameras will occasionally "glitch". However, I've had them frequently happen for the first 30-45 seconds or so, up to an 8 minute episode recently. I never experienced any of these with my cheapo Sony D-8. Once, when the camera was quite new, I was blank (blue screen) for 30 minutes before it slowly filled-in, pixel by pixel. I'm pretty sure I have a lemon...... Glitches I can live with; I don't believe, however, that it's too much to expect, when spending the bucks these things cost, to have it record when you push the button. BTW, Chris, what's the little black dot on some of the folders? Cheers __________________ -- Vic Owen --

February 6th, 2002, 11:42 AM	#31
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Our first problem was repaired just under the initial 12 month warranty period. Repairs are then warranted for an additional 3 months. Inside the 3 months the problem had again happened. So, the second repair was inside the additional 3 month warranty period. All repairs to date have been inside the standard factory warranty.

February 6th, 2002, 03:47 PM	#32
Bradley Miller Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Rockwall, TX, USA Posts: 77	Can someone post some frames or a short 10 second clip of this phenomenon?

February 6th, 2002, 07:05 PM	#33
debbbbgk Posts: n/a	I have the nasty stuff .... where should I post it??? I can post some frames .... even on my organization's website if we can't find a place --- let me know .... deb

February 7th, 2002, 12:01 AM	#35
bingalls Posts: n/a	Does anyone from Canon monitor this board? If so it would be nice about now for someone to respond. With three pages of responses it's odviously a hot issue with a lot of folks. I, for one, chucked my plan to reuse tapes, bought new ones that I couldn't afford based upon what I originally heard from this board. Now it appears to be camera problems which is even scarier. I've gotta believe that Canon has seen this before. Chris, do you have any connections at Canon that might shed some light on this?

February 8th, 2002, 08:32 AM	#38
debbbbgk Posts: n/a	not sure about the temperature difference hypothesis ... I have the banding/bleedthru problem appear VERY BAD twice ... the first time was indoors ... my camera had also been indoors -- "regular" indoor temp (maybe 68-70??) . the second time was outside and it was colder (just shot it about 10 days ago). I also reviewed a tape I shot before that outdoor tape. I noticed a tiny TINY brief pixel problem. That tape was also taken inside/ regular temp. I do note that these problems all occur at the beginning of the tape ... they go away after maybe 30 seconds max -- of course, that did NOT help me with the mini interviews I was doing with several people -- totally lost a few of them!! I am getting a clip ready to send to Chris so he can post it ... thanks for that offer!! Hope it's ok to compress it down a bit -- I only have a 56 connection ... will send some still frames, too. deb

February 8th, 2002, 10:20 AM	#39
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	I am the person who has been around the 5 XL-1's. Two of the cameras are at our church and never leave the building. So, you are correct about these two. However, the other three belong to our business and are used in a variety of locations, situations, and temperatures. These range from indoor/outdoor weddings to outdoor competitions to indoor ballgames, presentations, and musicals. The three cameras have seen a range of temperatures from, roughly, freezing (outdoor colorguard routine in November) to 100 (outdoor wedding in August) degrees. The one camera that had to be returned multple times was one that traveled a lot. The other two traveling cameras have, so far, been fine without repair. The only problems we have seen that resemble the problem described here are when the heads were out of alignment and/or dirty. It is the camera's job to completely overwrite the tape - not the tape's job to erase itself.

February 8th, 2002, 07:16 PM	#42
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Vic, the little black dot tells you that you've participated in that thread. I needed a way of knowing where I've shot my mouth off and where I haven't. ;-) __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 8th, 2002, 07:21 PM	#43
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	OK, I get it.....more dots = bigger mouth! thanks __________________ -- Vic Owen --

February 8th, 2002, 11:20 PM	#44
gratedcheese Posts: n/a	Holy Mary, Mother of God!!! I've been reading this thread thinking that Canon is gonna get its A** sued off in a class-action suit. I've been thinking of purchasing the XL1S, but might hold off a bit until I hear the end of this little triage! Don't really know what tapes everyone are using (although it doesn't seem it's been that wide of a variety), but this appears to be a Canon problem. Save those ruined tapes. Is it as Chris has said: do all cameras exhibit the same kind of screw ups? I'm sure Canon has some kind of clause in your purchase agreement that will attempt to prohibit a class-action suit, regardless if it is their problem. But faults in the assembly line have derailed more than one large behomoth! How about those Firestone tires? Challenge them where the rubber meets the road, brothers!!

February 8th, 2002, 11:40 PM	#45
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Well, the deal is, on this board most folks are Canon owners, so you're hearing about it mostly from an XL1 point of view. The fact is that all DV camcorders of various makes and models tend to exhibit this very problem. It's the single worst aspect of DV, in my opinion. I've heard about it on Sony cameras, Panasonic, JVC, etc. etc. It's definitely a common problem but I don't think it's a Canon-specific issue. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!