The Gigantic Mini DV Deck / Camcorder as Deck Thread

[Matt Pope]

Don't worry, I've searched for every post I could find on the topic, so I don't think I'm repeating any questions that have been asked very often. (I'm not going to ask whether to buy a deck or a cheap 2nd camera!)

However, I am trying to make that decision - I know all the arguments on both sides, but I've got some considerations personally that I need help with if you don't mind...

IF I go the 2nd camera route (which I may not), I'm not going to get the cheapest thing out there - I'd proabably jumping up to the low $1000+ range. Here are my questions:

1) After looking some at the Canon Optura/Elura and the Sony PC's (like all the "vertical" designed cams), I'm having trouble figuring out if any of the cameras will shoot both audio channels (simultaneously). Also, will some/all of them playback from either audio channel?

2) As a related question, the issue I'm trying to solve is I often have split-audio track tapes that I need to make dups of. Since I don't think my NLE (Pro-One) will output to two separate channels, I need a "deck/camera" that will allow me to make dups. Preferrably, I could just firewire my XL1s to whatever deck/camera I get to make the dup, but I've never heard that this is possible. My guess is I could send video/audio1 over firewire and audio2 over analog simulateously. Does anyone know if I can do this (or another way to accomplish this?) If so, do any of these cameras have analog inputs/outputs?

3) Finally, I know for shooting purposes, if I try to match footage from the XL1 to any 1-chip, it's not going to match extremely well, so I'm not convinced I need to get a Canon from that standpoint, but should I expect that using a Sony (camera) for playback/output would cause compatability problems with stuff shot on the XL1s? (Can I shoot on the Canon, and capture on the Sony, or output to the Sony, then use in the Canon, etc.... I use all Panasonic PQ tapes if it matters...)

Sorry it's so long - thanks for the help!!

[Matt Pope]

tap, tap... is this thing on?

:-)

[Jeff Donald]

I'm not sure what you mean by both channels simultaniously. Do you mean left and right channel? Do you mean 12 bit and 16 bit at the same time? The mini DV spec. calls for two channels of 16 bit audio or 4 channels of 12 bit audio. You cannot record two 16 bit channels and two 12 bit channels.

What do you mean by split audio track tapes? If your talking 4 channel ouput most NLE's do not suport it. You need to mix down to two channels before output. Some cameras support 4 channel mixing of output, but your better off do the mix to two channels in your NLE (more control).

Search the forum for Canon Optura Pi. It very closely matches the XL1. It is out of production but they show up here on the classifieds and on ebay fairly often. I used to own one and I used it's footage mixed with the XL1 on several occasions and it was very hard to tell which was which. The Optura was used in a doc. about Hitler and some footage I saw was excellant. Mixing brands also present a little more of a compatability problem. Canon tapes don't play back as well in Sony and vice versa.

Jeff

[Chris Hurd]

The question confuses me also. All DV camcorders are capable of two channels of audio. The XL1/XL1S will handle four channels (as two stereo pairs). Some NLE systems will record all four at once; some won't.

There's no issue at all regarding the moving of two channels of audio to duplication decks. You can feed this stereo pair over FireWire and analog output simultaneously. However, regarding four channels of audio (two stereo pairs), I recommend mixing them down to two channels in post. Most duplication decks, and most of your paying customers, will only have the ability to play back two channels anyway.

If your primary camera is a Canon, it would be a good idea for your secondary one to be a Canon as well. As Jeff mentions, the Optura Pi, about $900 if you can one, is the best one-CCD camcorder you could hope to have for approximating the look of the XL1 (due to the Optura's RGB color filter).

Not sure if this is of any help, but hope so. Good luck,

[Matt Pope]

Sorry for the confusion! Let me see if I can clarify a little...

1) I am indeed talking about shooting all four channels on the XL1s. When I said two channels, I meant two "tracks". The reason I often need to keep all these channels seperate and not "mix them down" to 2 channels in post, is that clients that I do outsource shooting for often want the flexibility to have all four channels of the audio available to them, instead of having to rely on my mix. Since I try to keep a copy of everything I shoot, I would also like my copy to maintain all four separate channels, for the same flexbility reasons if I need to revisit the footage later.

Based on what I see about all 1-chip cameras, the only way I can transfer my channels 3&4 (to the new tape on whatever 1-chip playback device I use) is to use the audio-dub feature (analog). I know the audio (3&4) won't match up perfectly with the video, but if I ever need to use it again, I can fix that in post. I'm assuming the ability to capture to post from channels 3&4 is a fuction of my NLE, and not related to the camera, or is that incorrect?

Other than using a camera, will any "real" decks allow me to record audio to channels 3&4? None of the materials I've found online are very specific. (i'm talking about the dsr-11, sony walkman 1000, panasonic 1000/2000, etc).

2) Also, you mention the Optura Pi. What about the Elura 2/2mc? I saw that it also has the RGB color filter and is a little less expensive. However, I don't know if the "Progressive Scan CCD" it uses is a good thing or a bad thing since there's no option to ever shoot interlaced. Have you heard anything about this camera?

Thanks so much! Sorry again for the confusion - I appreciate your help!

Matt

[Jeff Donald]

Importing 12bit, 4 channel audio into NLE's is dependent on the brand. Some only support 2 channel capture, they just don't recognize channel 3 and 4 on the firewire. In that you need to capture 3 and 4 analog. Some NLE's support channel 3 and 4 capture, but require two passes, so the capture takes twice as long but it's in sync.

If your looking for a 1 chip camera that matches (closest) the XL1 the Optura Pi is it. Anything else will not match as well. Tapes also interchange fine. Off hand I don't know about the machines you mention. I doubt the Walkman supports 4 channel. Several higher end decks support ($4,000 and up) support 4 channel dubbing between tapes. You might want to repost just that question, because I know there are some DSR-11 users, as well as Panasonic users.

Jeff

[Shaun Roemich]

In response to the question raised about playing back Canon shot tapes in Sony equipment raised at the top of this thread, I've had some issues playing stuff shot on the XL1 back in my Sony VX-DHR1000 DV VTR (the DV version of the DSR30 deck, came out several years ago)....

I sometimes (more frequently than I would care to admit) get drop-out style artifacts when trying to capture to my NLE or trying to output to my duplication rack... I'm fairly confident that it is a compatibility issue instead of strictly a tape speed issue as my deck WILL spool up to speed to playback DVCam material (which of course means the tape moves 50% faster across the heads), which was never a posted capability of the DHR1000...

The nice thing however is that the data track seems to come over intact if you ever use that...

Good shooting

[Tim Tonner]

I am interested in info(cost,vendors, etc) on decks that allow for playback of miniDV videotape. I would prefer to use a deck rather than my Xl1, and also because it would be nice to have a deck to deck option for creating protection masters, etc. Also, are there mini DV playback decks that are firewire-ready for capturing to my non-linear program?

[Chris Hurd]

All DV decks are FireWire-ready by definition.

What's your budget? DV decks run anywhere from $900 to more than $30,000.

[Keith Luken]

I was interested as well, and decided since I did not need or want the DV deck on my entertainment system much, but rather on my computer to capture and edit I opted to get a ZR45MC Cam as my "deck". This way I can beat it up, and still have a slum around cam and being a Cancon I get full compatability with my GL2 tapes. And it was half the cost of a deck. And it is portable so when I want to show tapes somewhere I just grab the ZR45 and off I go. Ordered the Lenmar LIC-535 for over 8 hours of battery use. SO if I get a couple of years out of it then I toss it if it acts up and go for whatever is out then. JVC has a DV - SVHS combo deck, but it runs over $1000 and I don't know if it has firewire.

[Tim Tonner]

Thanks for the info...I'm not looking for extremely sophisticated hardware, rather a reliable deck for capturing footage to my drives, or for playback to a monitor. I'm not looking to drop 30K, minimal investment would suffice.
Tim

[Chris Hurd]

Okay, let's start to narrow it down then...

Do you need Mini-DV only, or will you require a deck that can handle the larger full-size DV cassettes? In other words, with Mini DV, you're looking at 80 minute run times (two hours in LP mode); or more than four hours on a deck that accepts Mini DV as well as the full-size DV casettes.

At just under $2,000 the Panasonic AG-DV2000 is the least expensive full-size DV deck available.

[Tim Tonner]

For now, miniDV only...basically, a deck for playback to monitor and for digitizing. Ideally, a deck that both plays AND records would be nice, so that I may export from computer a finished piece to it, mastering back to miniDV. Prices??...
Tim

[Chris Hurd]

All DV decks play and record.

Consider the Panasonic AG-DV1000:

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/vtrs_vcrs/f_ag-dv1000.html

Street price is about $1000. The only other options less expensive than this are two portable Sony "walkman" style DV decks, one without an LCD screen appx. $600, the other with an LCD screen appx. $900. Hope this helps,

[Tim Tonner]

Chris---Thanks, your info is most helpful.
Tim