The Gigantic Mini DV Deck / Camcorder as Deck Thread

Mark Bournes · June 5th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios

I use a Canon xl-2 to shoot and I capture from and edit to a cheaper mini dv camera. I never playback anything from my XL-2. I haven't had any issues yet and have done a lot of projects this way. Saved me $$$ on buying a $1000 + deck. I plan on buying one eventually, but I'm a firm believer in if it works then don't fix it.

Charles Papert · June 5th, 2007, 04:15 PM

I'm getting ready to sell my DSR-30 DV deck--if anyone is interested, please make me a reasonable offer.

Stelios Christofides · June 5th, 2007, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

I'm getting ready to sell my DSR-30 DV deck--if anyone is interested, please make me a reasonable offer.

Charles, what condition is your deck and how old is it?

Stelios

Charles Papert · June 5th, 2007, 11:15 PM

Deck is probably 6-7 years old at this point. It's been used for my projects but not daily. Works flawlessly. No dropouts, no problems. It's a tank. Full rack size, very solid. Has integrated jog/shuttle on the control tray and remote. I also have a DSR-20 deck and I don't need both any more. The 20 is more portable so I'm keeping that one.

Juni Zhao · June 6th, 2007, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stelios Christofides

Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios

Once the video is recorded on the MiniDV tape, it doesn't make any difference between taking it out using expensive deck and taking out using a cheap MiniDV camcorder. Because it's already digital binary signal on the tape. Just like you have a file on your expensive computer, then you copy this file to a cheap computer, it's still the same file! That is the advantage of the digital nature.....

Ash Greyson · June 6th, 2007, 09:10 AM

Juni, that is only true in theory, not practice. A deck will be faster at getting to in and out points (you can save a lot of time if you log extensively), a deck will have less trouble going from brand to brand of tapes, a deck will have less drop outs, etc. There are many advantages to having a deck...

ash =o)

Juni Zhao · June 6th, 2007, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Juni, that is only true in theory, not practice. A deck will be faster at getting to in and out points (you can save a lot of time if you log extensively), a deck will have less trouble going from brand to brand of tapes, a deck will have less drop outs, etc. There are many advantages to having a deck...

ash =o)

Ash, you are right in this sense..... But I only edit once the video is dumped on hard drive. I never found any problem, not even dropouts.....

Brian Standing · June 6th, 2007, 10:47 AM

Look around for a used Panasonic AG-DV1000. They're great units, built like a tank, have timecode display up front, and lots of input/output options. Mine was $800 new, but I bet you can find one in good shape for half that.

Only downside is that they are mini-DV only, not the full-size cassettes.

Heiko Saele · June 6th, 2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

once the video is recorded on the MiniDV tape, it doesn't make any difference between taking it out using expensive deck and taking out using a cheap MiniDV camcorder. Because it's already digital binary signal on the tape. Just like you have a file on your expensive computer, then you copy this file to a cheap computer, it's still the same file! That is the advantage of the digital nature.....

Well, it's not exactly the same because a cheap MiniDV camcorder is not as precise in writing the information on tape as is a professional DVCAM deck. There is something called error correction and concealment that allows for a certain percentage of errors to be written on and read from DV tape before you can actually see an error (like one block when it can't be read is substituted with the copy of a nearby block).

With a cheap drive you get more errors in the first place and, when the tape degrades, you will more quickly experience visible errors because when too much errors are adding up then the correction and concealment mechanisms won't work anymore.

Ash Greyson · June 6th, 2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juni Zhao

Ash, you are right in this sense..... But I only edit once the video is dumped on hard drive. I never found any problem, not even dropouts.....

Correct, if you get it problem free to the computer, it is all the same... 1's and 0's... It may take longer and you will run a greater risk of dropouts. A small cheap camera can certainly work but it is not optimum.

ash =o)

Juni Zhao · June 6th, 2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Correct, if you get it problem free to the computer, it is all the same... 1's and 0's... It may take longer and you will run a greater risk of dropouts. A small cheap camera can certainly work but it is not optimum.

ash =o)

I once talked to an electrical engineer who happens to be in this field. He says that DV read and write mechanism is so mature that modern DV cameras hardly make any errors. Even a low end camera can handle data read/write (on digital tape) transfer very well. That was like 2 years ago, I have never confirmed from an official source what he said however. Thru my own testing, i just believe that coz I have never had any visible errors using cheap camcorder to upload or even download, although I do have a deck.....

Ash Greyson · June 7th, 2007, 10:09 PM

Juni, some tapes can be problematic and decks are more forgiving, i bet everyone on the forum has a story that could back that up. It is rare to have tape issues in general but a deck just is more robust and reduces problems even more.

ash =o)

Joe Moore · June 30th, 2007, 02:44 PM

Guys, this thread was exactly what I needed to hear. I am going to have to get a cheap miniDV camera to deck for me. When I get a promotion or win the lottery I would love to get the dedicated deck.

Is switching from one brand of camera to another an issue. I shoot on a Sony VX2000 but I am going to deck with a Canon ZR600 (gotta good deal <$100)?

Richard Alvarez · June 30th, 2007, 05:23 PM

JOE
Switching brands of playback machines is not a problem, it's switching tape formulations that can cause gunk-up. I shoot with an XL2 and use a Sony DSR 11 for playback/capture. No probs.

Having said that - further down the road, there are SOME formats of HDV that are brand specific. For instance Canon's 24f. No deck will play it back. You need a Canon Camera to do this.

Tobin Strickland · July 7th, 2007, 08:28 PM

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ht=log+capture

June 5th, 2007, 03:39 PM	#526
Mark Bournes Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Jupiter, FL Posts: 565	Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK? Stelios I use a Canon xl-2 to shoot and I capture from and edit to a cheaper mini dv camera. I never playback anything from my XL-2. I haven't had any issues yet and have done a lot of projects this way. Saved me $$$ on buying a $1000 + deck. I plan on buying one eventually, but I'm a firm believer in if it works then don't fix it. __________________ Mark www.sharkvp.com

June 5th, 2007, 04:15 PM	#527
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	I'm getting ready to sell my DSR-30 DV deck--if anyone is interested, please make me a reasonable offer. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

June 5th, 2007, 11:15 PM	#529
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Deck is probably 6-7 years old at this point. It's been used for my projects but not daily. Works flawlessly. No dropouts, no problems. It's a tank. Full rack size, very solid. Has integrated jog/shuttle on the control tray and remote. I also have a DSR-20 deck and I don't need both any more. The 20 is more portable so I'm keeping that one. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

June 6th, 2007, 10:47 AM	#533
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	Look around for a used Panasonic AG-DV1000. They're great units, built like a tank, have timecode display up front, and lots of input/output options. Mine was $800 new, but I bet you can find one in good shape for half that. Only downside is that they are mini-DV only, not the full-size cassettes. __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

July 7th, 2007, 08:28 PM	#540
Tobin Strickland Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 86	More info here as well http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ht=log+capture

June 6th, 2007, 09:10 AM	#531
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Juni, that is only true in theory, not practice. A deck will be faster at getting to in and out points (you can save a lot of time if you log extensively), a deck will have less trouble going from brand to brand of tapes, a deck will have less drop outs, etc. There are many advantages to having a deck... ash =o)

June 7th, 2007, 10:09 PM	#537
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Juni, some tapes can be problematic and decks are more forgiving, i bet everyone on the forum has a story that could back that up. It is rare to have tape issues in general but a deck just is more robust and reduces problems even more. ash =o)

June 30th, 2007, 02:44 PM	#538
Joe Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 25	Guys, this thread was exactly what I needed to hear. I am going to have to get a cheap miniDV camera to deck for me. When I get a promotion or win the lottery I would love to get the dedicated deck. Is switching from one brand of camera to another an issue. I shoot on a Sony VX2000 but I am going to deck with a Canon ZR600 (gotta good deal <$100)?

June 30th, 2007, 05:23 PM	#539
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	JOE Switching brands of playback machines is not a problem, it's switching tape formulations that can cause gunk-up. I shoot with an XL2 and use a Sony DSR 11 for playback/capture. No probs. Having said that - further down the road, there are SOME formats of HDV that are brand specific. For instance Canon's 24f. No deck will play it back. You need a Canon Camera to do this.