Dv to VHS recording question at DVinfo.net

Jason Gatti · January 19th, 2004, 03:46 PM

Well I used my new Canon GL2 for the first time last night. I was very very happy with the picture. I now have a question. I have to provide the hockey team with a VHS tape. The copy I made was no where near the quality of course. What I'm wondering is why? Does it have to do with a digital signal being passed to a non digital recorder? Is it poor wire quality? Or both? The VCR is a top end VCR as far as they go, yet the picture looks like it was made on a sorry VHS camera. Also if the above is the case, how do the machines transfer Dv to VHS on the dual decks? I've seen several of them and it makes me wonder if it would be worth it. Thanks in advance.

Gints Klimanis · January 19th, 2004, 03:55 PM

If you're connecting your camcorder directly to your VHS, use the s-video connector instead of the RCA composite connector for a better picture. Most VHS VCRs don't have an s-video input, so you may have to look for a unit that does.

The resolution of the VHS is much less than that of the DV camcorder, so don't expect the VHS to look better. Compare your
tape to other VHS tapes of similar material. If yours is much worse, then you have something to worry about. Also, be sure to clean your VHS deck before recording.

As for the pros, I've posted that question here. Most use the s-video connector on some "industrial" decks, although Mike Rehmus reports that the results aren't much better than that of his cheap VHS VCR.

In my search for a better VHS deck, I chose the HM-DH30000 D-VHS deck from JVC. It has ALL of the connectors you need and does a better job of VHS playback due to its noise reduction circuit. Where else will you find a VHS with component output?
heh heh.

Gints Klimanis · January 19th, 2004, 04:04 PM

If you're going to buy something to make copies for friends,
consider one of those new DVD recorders and write to DVD-R (rather than DVD+R) directly from your camcorder. DVD authoring on the computer is a pain in the butt.

For more DVD copies in 1/4 the time of the material, a computer drive for ~ $100 (Pioneer A06) will enable you to make copies of
your DVD-Rs. The DVD-R disks cost about $1 these days.

Bill Pryor · January 19th, 2004, 04:19 PM

Problem is, recorded DVDs won't play on everybody's DVD player or computer DVD player. I have yet to see one you can be confident of playing everyplace. VHS, unfortunately, is the only standard that everybody has, unless you want to go to the expense of a manufactured DVD (glass master). Hopefully this will all change someday, but not for now. I've even seen two brand new DVD players of the same brand, and the recorded DVD would play on one fairly well with some skips, but not at all on the other one.

Gints Klimanis · January 19th, 2004, 05:54 PM

Hi Bill,

The recordable DVD issue has been covered in other threads.
While you're right about the lack of 100% compatibility, the situation is way better than you describe. My experience in distributing DVD-Rs to a group of 50 people on a bi-monthly basis has been far more positive with only one failure on a friend's very old Sony DVD player. If you know your audience, DVD-R can be quite reliable because friends are willing to buy the right DVD player. Cheapo Apex DVD players can be had for $50.
It is far more efficient to copy than VHS. Also, no one wants to watch VHS on a big TV.

Cheepo DVD-Rs also seemed to have a problem with media quality, so I stuck with TDKs and experienced no failures.
Which were you using? Were you using +R or -R ?

Bill Pryor · January 19th, 2004, 06:10 PM

Most of the DVD problems I've seen have been from dub houses or from festival entries. If you have only 50 people and control what players they use, then you're lucky. Our clients who use DVDs are willing to pay for the glass master to ensure compatibility. I've tried some authoring, but same problem--they work some places, others they may not. It's just not quite there yet, unless they want to pay for the glass master. Then it's great. The prices have dropped sufficiently so if you buy around 400, it's about the same price as VHS dubs, and packaging is usually included. As I said, I've seen failures from new high quality players. In fact, every DVD that's not come from a glass master that I've seen has had machines it wouldn't play on. I tested them out on a variety of computers and players and finally gave up. If they want a glass master, then we'll do DVDs. A local dub house who has a good and long track record with them is having fair success, but he can't guarantee they'll play on everything. I've seen more failures in computers than in stand alone players, but as I mentioned, even new expensive ones from a professional AV house have had variances. Everybody seems to think there is a standard, but there really isn't. I keep hoping it'll gradually change, and I guess it is getting better, but it's still not solid enough for me. I'm hoping somebody will come out with an affordable glass mastering device; that would solve all the problems.

Jason Gatti · January 19th, 2004, 07:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Pryor : Most of the DVD problems I've seen have been from dub houses or from festival entries. If you have only 50 people and control what players they use, then you're lucky. Our clients who use DVDs are willing to pay for the glass master to ensure compatibility. I've tried some authoring, but same problem--they work some places, others they may not. It's just not quite there yet, unless they want to pay for the glass master. Then it's great. The prices have dropped sufficiently so if you buy around 400, it's about the same price as VHS dubs, and packaging is usually included. As I said, I've seen failures from new high quality players. In fact, every DVD that's not come from a glass master that I've seen has had machines it wouldn't play on. I tested them out on a variety of computers and players and finally gave up. If they want a glass master, then we'll do DVDs. A local dub house who has a good and long track record with them is having fair success, but he can't guarantee they'll play on everything. I've seen more failures in computers than in stand alone players, but as I mentioned, even new expensive ones from a professional AV house have had variances. Everybody seems to think there is a standard, but there really isn't. I keep hoping it'll gradually change, and I guess it is getting better, but it's still not solid enough for me. I'm hoping somebody will come out with an affordable glass mastering device; that would solve all the problems. -->>>

Bill you seen to know a bit on the subject. Can a company take any burned DVD+ or - R and make what you call a glassmaster from it? Or does a tape need to be sent to them and be made from it?

Jim Quinlan · January 20th, 2004, 12:35 PM

This weekend, I just burned a bunch of VHS tapes using Vegas and my canopus AVDC-100 digital / analog converter. The quality was near perfect.

The canopus is my most reliable piece of editing gear. It hooks to the PC via firewire and you don't need no stinking capture card.

It works great every time. I click print to DV tape in vegas, turn on the canopus and click dv/analog button and then hook the analog video and audio connections to my cheap old vcr and get perfect results every time. I don't need to use s-video either.

Canopus goes both ways as input or output.

January 19th, 2004, 03:46 PM	#1
Jason Gatti Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 48	Dv to VHS recording question Well I used my new Canon GL2 for the first time last night. I was very very happy with the picture. I now have a question. I have to provide the hockey team with a VHS tape. The copy I made was no where near the quality of course. What I'm wondering is why? Does it have to do with a digital signal being passed to a non digital recorder? Is it poor wire quality? Or both? The VCR is a top end VCR as far as they go, yet the picture looks like it was made on a sorry VHS camera. Also if the above is the case, how do the machines transfer Dv to VHS on the dual decks? I've seen several of them and it makes me wonder if it would be worth it. Thanks in advance.

January 20th, 2004, 12:35 PM	#8
Jim Quinlan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 177	This weekend, I just burned a bunch of VHS tapes using Vegas and my canopus AVDC-100 digital / analog converter. The quality was near perfect. The canopus is my most reliable piece of editing gear. It hooks to the PC via firewire and you don't need no stinking capture card. It works great every time. I click print to DV tape in vegas, turn on the canopus and click dv/analog button and then hook the analog video and audio connections to my cheap old vcr and get perfect results every time. I don't need to use s-video either. Canopus goes both ways as input or output. __________________ Jim

January 19th, 2004, 03:55 PM	#2
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	If you're connecting your camcorder directly to your VHS, use the s-video connector instead of the RCA composite connector for a better picture. Most VHS VCRs don't have an s-video input, so you may have to look for a unit that does. The resolution of the VHS is much less than that of the DV camcorder, so don't expect the VHS to look better. Compare your tape to other VHS tapes of similar material. If yours is much worse, then you have something to worry about. Also, be sure to clean your VHS deck before recording. As for the pros, I've posted that question here. Most use the s-video connector on some "industrial" decks, although Mike Rehmus reports that the results aren't much better than that of his cheap VHS VCR. In my search for a better VHS deck, I chose the HM-DH30000 D-VHS deck from JVC. It has ALL of the connectors you need and does a better job of VHS playback due to its noise reduction circuit. Where else will you find a VHS with component output? heh heh.

January 19th, 2004, 04:04 PM	#3
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	If you're going to buy something to make copies for friends, consider one of those new DVD recorders and write to DVD-R (rather than DVD+R) directly from your camcorder. DVD authoring on the computer is a pain in the butt. For more DVD copies in 1/4 the time of the material, a computer drive for ~ $100 (Pioneer A06) will enable you to make copies of your DVD-Rs. The DVD-R disks cost about $1 these days.

January 19th, 2004, 04:19 PM	#4
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Problem is, recorded DVDs won't play on everybody's DVD player or computer DVD player. I have yet to see one you can be confident of playing everyplace. VHS, unfortunately, is the only standard that everybody has, unless you want to go to the expense of a manufactured DVD (glass master). Hopefully this will all change someday, but not for now. I've even seen two brand new DVD players of the same brand, and the recorded DVD would play on one fairly well with some skips, but not at all on the other one.

January 19th, 2004, 05:54 PM	#5
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Hi Bill, The recordable DVD issue has been covered in other threads. While you're right about the lack of 100% compatibility, the situation is way better than you describe. My experience in distributing DVD-Rs to a group of 50 people on a bi-monthly basis has been far more positive with only one failure on a friend's very old Sony DVD player. If you know your audience, DVD-R can be quite reliable because friends are willing to buy the right DVD player. Cheapo Apex DVD players can be had for $50. It is far more efficient to copy than VHS. Also, no one wants to watch VHS on a big TV. Cheepo DVD-Rs also seemed to have a problem with media quality, so I stuck with TDKs and experienced no failures. Which were you using? Were you using +R or -R ?

January 19th, 2004, 06:10 PM	#6
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Most of the DVD problems I've seen have been from dub houses or from festival entries. If you have only 50 people and control what players they use, then you're lucky. Our clients who use DVDs are willing to pay for the glass master to ensure compatibility. I've tried some authoring, but same problem--they work some places, others they may not. It's just not quite there yet, unless they want to pay for the glass master. Then it's great. The prices have dropped sufficiently so if you buy around 400, it's about the same price as VHS dubs, and packaging is usually included. As I said, I've seen failures from new high quality players. In fact, every DVD that's not come from a glass master that I've seen has had machines it wouldn't play on. I tested them out on a variety of computers and players and finally gave up. If they want a glass master, then we'll do DVDs. A local dub house who has a good and long track record with them is having fair success, but he can't guarantee they'll play on everything. I've seen more failures in computers than in stand alone players, but as I mentioned, even new expensive ones from a professional AV house have had variances. Everybody seems to think there is a standard, but there really isn't. I keep hoping it'll gradually change, and I guess it is getting better, but it's still not solid enough for me. I'm hoping somebody will come out with an affordable glass mastering device; that would solve all the problems.

January 19th, 2004, 07:22 PM	#7
Jason Gatti Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 48	<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Pryor : Most of the DVD problems I've seen have been from dub houses or from festival entries. If you have only 50 people and control what players they use, then you're lucky. Our clients who use DVDs are willing to pay for the glass master to ensure compatibility. I've tried some authoring, but same problem--they work some places, others they may not. It's just not quite there yet, unless they want to pay for the glass master. Then it's great. The prices have dropped sufficiently so if you buy around 400, it's about the same price as VHS dubs, and packaging is usually included. As I said, I've seen failures from new high quality players. In fact, every DVD that's not come from a glass master that I've seen has had machines it wouldn't play on. I tested them out on a variety of computers and players and finally gave up. If they want a glass master, then we'll do DVDs. A local dub house who has a good and long track record with them is having fair success, but he can't guarantee they'll play on everything. I've seen more failures in computers than in stand alone players, but as I mentioned, even new expensive ones from a professional AV house have had variances. Everybody seems to think there is a standard, but there really isn't. I keep hoping it'll gradually change, and I guess it is getting better, but it's still not solid enough for me. I'm hoping somebody will come out with an affordable glass mastering device; that would solve all the problems. -->>> Bill you seen to know a bit on the subject. Can a company take any burned DVD+ or - R and make what you call a glassmaster from it? Or does a tape need to be sent to them and be made from it?