Transferring HD footage to digibeta for festival? at DVinfo.net

Matt Buys · February 6th, 2008, 05:17 PM

I shot an adventure race with my HV20 in HD. I edited it in pp2. I'm about to send off the DVD's to the Jackson Hole film festival but if it's chosen . . . then I'm confused about how to get my HD changed to the format they want. I called down there and the person who would normally be able to answer my question is in Berlin so I'm hoping somebody on DVI might be able to help me out. Here's my question. According to the assitant, for the exhibition format they do not except mini dv hd, they only except HDCAM and digibeta. Can I transfer HD tapes or what have you to either of these formats and if I can how do I and how much does this typically cost for a ten minute short? For a little more clarification: Here's what it says and the link to it.

Productions must be in one of the following exhibition formats: 35mm, Beta, BetaSP, DigiBeta, HD or (only with the approval of the JHFF) DVD. All digital video entries must be transferred and submitted on VHS (NTSC format only) or DVD (any region; NTSC or PAL format).

http://www.withoutabox.com/03film/03...stival_id=4095

James Brill · February 7th, 2008, 03:40 PM

I work at Home Planet Productions in Santa Barbara, CA and we just got done making a ton of tapes for the Film Festival here so that people like yourself could have their work shown. The process was pretty much send your footage to a tape like mini dv and then we would go dv deck to digibeta deck. Now I'm guessing you don't have any I/O capabilities so renting a deck to output to is out of the question unless you feel like buying a capture card. This is where you go to a post house like us with your project and do the transfer there since they usually have both the decks and I/O capabilities. Although then comes another problem in which you would be hard pressed to find a post house that uses PP2. For example, people cutting with final cut could export a self contained quicktime, bring it on a hard drive, we load it into our mac and then send it to tape. Since most post houses will have Final Cut or Avid on their computers you might want to try doing an EDL and recapturing your footage there. I haven't used PP2 in forever but it might be possible to output a quicktime that is the same settings as your timeline and is only around a couple gigs that Avid or Final Cut can open. This way you don't have to lug all your media around just the media you are using. The problem is making sure Avid of Final Cut are okay with opening it.

Matt Buys · February 7th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Thanks James. I'll try and find somebody who'll let me borrow a camcorder for an output to HDV tape. Roughly what does your outfit cost to transfer fifteen minutes from HDV tape to Digibeta?

What really worries me though is what happens when I go tapeless and still use PP2?

Chris Soucy · February 8th, 2008, 12:13 AM

Maybe it's getting a bit late in the day, or I'm just not getting it for some other reason, but I do not understand something.

If "all digital video" has to be submitted on "either NTSC VHS or multi region DVD" (paraphrasing),

why can't you just down res in pp2 (whatever that is) and burn a DVD to suit?

This is most probably my limitation in understanding the problem, but help me out here!

By my reading of the rules, Digital Video (whatever their definition is) can only use one of the two: VHS or DVD.

Why do you need anything else?

Confused.

CS

James Brill · February 8th, 2008, 01:36 AM

Chris - I bet that is a mess up by the film festival. Unless they want it for judging having a dvd or vhs would look terrible.

A lot of film festivals want a copy of your work on a digibeta or hdcam tape because this helps the projectionist when playing your movie for the first time. You will probably see that they want bars and tone for 10 seconds, a slate, black, and have your show start at 01:00:00:00. This would mean if you had 40 seconds worth of bars, slate, and black for example, the timecode on your tape would have to start at 00:59:20:00. This lets the projectionist setup up his system and also know exactly where to rest the tape so he can start it right on cue for the showing and know what is supposed to be part of your show and what isn't. An example would be a movie that is supposed to start with a countdown or one that starts out in black but has sound going on. A projectionist would probably freak out but with looking at the timecode as a guide he knows that he is in the right spot.

With a dvd or vhs tape you don't get this type of guide or control. Espically DVD's with their possibilities of having convoluted menus, they are also mpeg 2 and lacking quality for most who don't have all the authorizing knowledge which leads to a poor image when projected onto a large canvas.

What we were charging everyone at the film festival was 125 for the deck to deck transfer and however much tape stock was. A 22 minute Digibeta is like 30 bucks and yours to keep.

I recommend looking up to make sure of the order of whats to come before your show is supposed to start. This will make the tape to tape transfer seamless and negates the need to digitize your media into a computer at the post house to fix the order of what comes before the show. With firewire you will be hard pressed to get the timecode to start at hour one but don't worry since its the digibeta tape that matters and that gets dialed in at the deck level.

Oh and the fact that you said you would cut to an HDV tape also make sure they have a HDV deck and not just a DV deck. Although the tapes are the same the decks are not.

Good Luck.

Phew!

Chris Soucy · February 8th, 2008, 02:05 AM

Hey, I'm just paraphrasing the rules as they are writ, nothing more.

It says, quite categorically "all digital video on VHS or DVD".

Now, there's a good probability this is "USA" English and thus incomprehensible to the rest of the English speaking world, but that is what it says.

I can, most definately, see your point, and it is taken as read, and a very well stated point to boot.

It doesn't, however, change the fact that what they're saying isn't what Matt was inquiring about (unless, of course, there is a serious "USA Vs Rest of World" English thing going on here).

I did not and do not want to give the impression that anything I said was about/ against your company making a few bucks out of this process - I wasn't.

It is purely on what the rules say, and nothing more.

"All digital video entries must be transferred and submitted on VHS (NTSC format only) or DVD (any region; NTSC or PAL format)."

What am I missing? Or are they just plain wrong?

CS

Carl Middleton · February 8th, 2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Soucy

"All digital video entries must be transferred and submitted on VHS (NTSC format only) or DVD (any region; NTSC or PAL format)."

I'm not spyin' any of our USA English in that jazz, yo. I think a DVD would fly, nothin' buggin 'bout that, homie. =D

*coughs*

I read it just like you. :)

Bill Pryor · February 8th, 2008, 09:20 AM

Chris, are you sure that requirement is not for copies the judges will view to make decisions on whether they accept the film?

I'm on the board of the Kansas International Film Festival and we accept *entries* on DVD or VHS (we had one VHS a couple of years ago), but if we select a film for *screening* in the festival, it has to be either a 35mm print or a DV/DVCAM tape. Bigger festivals usually want HDCAM for the theatrical screening copy, but you don't send the screener until after you've been accepted. DVD quality is not good enough for theatrical screening, and most smaller festivals like ours do DV/DVCAM and some still do Betacam. We want a minute of bars and tone at the head, followed by 10 seconds of black before the film starts, but we're not rigid about time code starting at 1 hour, although that's always a good thing to do if you can.

The purpose of the bars and tone is so the projectionist can set up the projector, and it's up to you to make sure your audio and video is properly calibrated. We have had tapes where there was absolutely no relation to the tone and the audio levels of the show itself. If you don't have the capability to make a tape that meets broadcast standards, and if the festival is important to you, it would be worth your time and money to go to an editing facility and get it done right. Once you have a good master tape, you can make dubs fairly inexpensively for other festivals in whatever format they require.

Having said all that, there are some very small festivals out there who will screen DVDs, but most I know about won't. In addition to the lower quality, there are always problems with a certain number of DVD entries. Every year we have one or two DVDs that won't play on anything. I think that's usually caused by a person using a DVD recorder instead of authoring the DVD and failing to "finalize" the recording, or in the case of an authored DVD failing to select the proper region. Also, people never put black at the head of their DVD, so if we tried to screen it, the audience would see the DVD menu up on the screen, which is a big no-no for theatrical projection. But if you do submit to a festival which will screen DVDs, be sure to have a bars/tone chapter and indicate that on your menu--so the projectionist can play the bars/tone segment and set things up. Then make sure you have 10 seconds of black that will play after he clicks the play button.

February 6th, 2008, 05:17 PM	#1
Matt Buys Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 426	Transferring HD footage to digibeta for festival? I shot an adventure race with my HV20 in HD. I edited it in pp2. I'm about to send off the DVD's to the Jackson Hole film festival but if it's chosen . . . then I'm confused about how to get my HD changed to the format they want. I called down there and the person who would normally be able to answer my question is in Berlin so I'm hoping somebody on DVI might be able to help me out. Here's my question. According to the assitant, for the exhibition format they do not except mini dv hd, they only except HDCAM and digibeta. Can I transfer HD tapes or what have you to either of these formats and if I can how do I and how much does this typically cost for a ten minute short? For a little more clarification: Here's what it says and the link to it. Productions must be in one of the following exhibition formats: 35mm, Beta, BetaSP, DigiBeta, HD or (only with the approval of the JHFF) DVD. All digital video entries must be transferred and submitted on VHS (NTSC format only) or DVD (any region; NTSC or PAL format). http://www.withoutabox.com/03film/03...stival_id=4095

February 8th, 2008, 12:13 AM	#4
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi Matt.............. Maybe it's getting a bit late in the day, or I'm just not getting it for some other reason, but I do not understand something. If "all digital video" has to be submitted on "either NTSC VHS or multi region DVD" (paraphrasing), why can't you just down res in pp2 (whatever that is) and burn a DVD to suit? This is most probably my limitation in understanding the problem, but help me out here! By my reading of the rules, Digital Video (whatever their definition is) can only use one of the two: VHS or DVD. Why do you need anything else? Confused. CS

February 8th, 2008, 02:05 AM	#6
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi James...... Hey, I'm just paraphrasing the rules as they are writ, nothing more. It says, quite categorically "all digital video on VHS or DVD". Now, there's a good probability this is "USA" English and thus incomprehensible to the rest of the English speaking world, but that is what it says. I can, most definately, see your point, and it is taken as read, and a very well stated point to boot. It doesn't, however, change the fact that what they're saying isn't what Matt was inquiring about (unless, of course, there is a serious "USA Vs Rest of World" English thing going on here). I did not and do not want to give the impression that anything I said was about/ against your company making a few bucks out of this process - I wasn't. It is purely on what the rules say, and nothing more. "All digital video entries must be transferred and submitted on VHS (NTSC format only) or DVD (any region; NTSC or PAL format)." What am I missing? Or are they just plain wrong? CS

February 7th, 2008, 03:40 PM	#2
James Brill Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 299	I work at Home Planet Productions in Santa Barbara, CA and we just got done making a ton of tapes for the Film Festival here so that people like yourself could have their work shown. The process was pretty much send your footage to a tape like mini dv and then we would go dv deck to digibeta deck. Now I'm guessing you don't have any I/O capabilities so renting a deck to output to is out of the question unless you feel like buying a capture card. This is where you go to a post house like us with your project and do the transfer there since they usually have both the decks and I/O capabilities. Although then comes another problem in which you would be hard pressed to find a post house that uses PP2. For example, people cutting with final cut could export a self contained quicktime, bring it on a hard drive, we load it into our mac and then send it to tape. Since most post houses will have Final Cut or Avid on their computers you might want to try doing an EDL and recapturing your footage there. I haven't used PP2 in forever but it might be possible to output a quicktime that is the same settings as your timeline and is only around a couple gigs that Avid or Final Cut can open. This way you don't have to lug all your media around just the media you are using. The problem is making sure Avid of Final Cut are okay with opening it.

February 7th, 2008, 06:12 PM	#3
Matt Buys Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 426	Thanks James. I'll try and find somebody who'll let me borrow a camcorder for an output to HDV tape. Roughly what does your outfit cost to transfer fifteen minutes from HDV tape to Digibeta? What really worries me though is what happens when I go tapeless and still use PP2?

February 8th, 2008, 01:36 AM	#5
James Brill Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 299	Chris - I bet that is a mess up by the film festival. Unless they want it for judging having a dvd or vhs would look terrible. A lot of film festivals want a copy of your work on a digibeta or hdcam tape because this helps the projectionist when playing your movie for the first time. You will probably see that they want bars and tone for 10 seconds, a slate, black, and have your show start at 01:00:00:00. This would mean if you had 40 seconds worth of bars, slate, and black for example, the timecode on your tape would have to start at 00:59:20:00. This lets the projectionist setup up his system and also know exactly where to rest the tape so he can start it right on cue for the showing and know what is supposed to be part of your show and what isn't. An example would be a movie that is supposed to start with a countdown or one that starts out in black but has sound going on. A projectionist would probably freak out but with looking at the timecode as a guide he knows that he is in the right spot. With a dvd or vhs tape you don't get this type of guide or control. Espically DVD's with their possibilities of having convoluted menus, they are also mpeg 2 and lacking quality for most who don't have all the authorizing knowledge which leads to a poor image when projected onto a large canvas. What we were charging everyone at the film festival was 125 for the deck to deck transfer and however much tape stock was. A 22 minute Digibeta is like 30 bucks and yours to keep. I recommend looking up to make sure of the order of whats to come before your show is supposed to start. This will make the tape to tape transfer seamless and negates the need to digitize your media into a computer at the post house to fix the order of what comes before the show. With firewire you will be hard pressed to get the timecode to start at hour one but don't worry since its the digibeta tape that matters and that gets dialed in at the deck level. Oh and the fact that you said you would cut to an HDV tape also make sure they have a HDV deck and not just a DV deck. Although the tapes are the same the decks are not. Good Luck. Phew!

February 8th, 2008, 09:20 AM	#8
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Chris, are you sure that requirement is not for copies the judges will view to make decisions on whether they accept the film? I'm on the board of the Kansas International Film Festival and we accept entries on DVD or VHS (we had one VHS a couple of years ago), but if we select a film for screening in the festival, it has to be either a 35mm print or a DV/DVCAM tape. Bigger festivals usually want HDCAM for the theatrical screening copy, but you don't send the screener until after you've been accepted. DVD quality is not good enough for theatrical screening, and most smaller festivals like ours do DV/DVCAM and some still do Betacam. We want a minute of bars and tone at the head, followed by 10 seconds of black before the film starts, but we're not rigid about time code starting at 1 hour, although that's always a good thing to do if you can. The purpose of the bars and tone is so the projectionist can set up the projector, and it's up to you to make sure your audio and video is properly calibrated. We have had tapes where there was absolutely no relation to the tone and the audio levels of the show itself. If you don't have the capability to make a tape that meets broadcast standards, and if the festival is important to you, it would be worth your time and money to go to an editing facility and get it done right. Once you have a good master tape, you can make dubs fairly inexpensively for other festivals in whatever format they require. Having said all that, there are some very small festivals out there who will screen DVDs, but most I know about won't. In addition to the lower quality, there are always problems with a certain number of DVD entries. Every year we have one or two DVDs that won't play on anything. I think that's usually caused by a person using a DVD recorder instead of authoring the DVD and failing to "finalize" the recording, or in the case of an authored DVD failing to select the proper region. Also, people never put black at the head of their DVD, so if we tried to screen it, the audience would see the DVD menu up on the screen, which is a big no-no for theatrical projection. But if you do submit to a festival which will screen DVDs, be sure to have a bars/tone chapter and indicate that on your menu--so the projectionist can play the bars/tone segment and set things up. Then make sure you have 10 seconds of black that will play after he clicks the play button.