I guess I'll be ordering a HM-700? at DVinfo.net

Alex Humphrey · September 25th, 2009, 02:48 PM

Well it looks like the TV station wants my old gear (including a JVC HD110 and DTE drive). After hearing some rumblings about the HM-700 having more video noise of ungained video here I looked around for some other cameras. Notably is the Pansonic HPX-300. It's been lowered in price , rebate and there is even an option for 25% down and 0 interest for 24 months. wow. pretty cool. maybe I should jump ship? So I went to the Panasonic site and realized the camera is P2 and Cmos. Two big strikes. But I never had a Cmos camera, I just know people complain about jello vision and the Sony fans says it doesn't exist in their EX-3 cameras. Then I saw at Panasonic video off their site addressing the issue.

Learn about Panasonic's AG-HPX300

click on the flashband-skew-video

If thier Cmos is as bad as that, I don't want anything to do with their camera. Or do you think they have exaggerated the skew factor so the viewer can understand it? Their answer in short was to avoid situations where it could be a factor. huh?

Anyway, relooking at some of Tim Dashwood's demo video (ducks in the pond) I see less video noise there than my HD110 hdv has. So if anyone here wants to weigh in on any of the above, please chime in. Now the Sony EX-3 fans says they don't have any (hardly any) skew problems. Maybe sony has a computerized built in answer to unwobble the image, or maybe they don't shoot in a way that would create a problem with cmos skewing. For me, I do LOTS of sports and lots of panning and starting and stoppings as well as LOTS of nature shots at uber telephoto (MTF adapter with 100mm-300mm Nikkor lenses) so I think I need to rule out a Cmos imager.

Too bad, I was starting to like the idea of a 100mbs AIC codec.

But yes, to anyone still wondering, I still wold love to have a Panasonic Vari-Cam, but I think the Red cameras will come into their own before I'll have the money for a Vari-Cam. Because in short, AIN'T NOTUN PERFUCT!

William Hohauser · September 25th, 2009, 10:14 PM

My experience with CMOS cameras is that the jello is the worst on 1 chip cameras. I've done a few hand held concert events with Sony's non-EX 3-chip CMOS cameras and the jello problem was not noticeable at all. My first experience with it was with a very cheap palm cam that cost $200. Walking shots caused the jello to start wiggling. I have a Sony HD1000 1 chip CMOS HDV camera and I have not seen the jello effect there either but I have haven't done much action camera with it, that's usually reserved for a JVC HD100. Some clips from DSLR cameras show very bad jello with hand held shots but exceptionally beautiful images with steady camera work. CCD cameras never have the problem.

The small amount of experience I've had with the HM700 shows that the noise is there but it gives a little life to the image in my opinion. The JVC HD camera images have always had a touch of Super16mm film quality to them especially if they are seen projected. Some other HD cameras almost look unreal. Just an aesthetic opinion. The HM700 has better color reproduction than your HD110 by the way.

Robert Rogoz · September 25th, 2009, 11:20 PM

I think so-called jello effect is a complete bs raised by pixel peepers. If it was so bad why is Discovery allowing EX1 or HPX300 in their lineup, but not HM700. I saw a snowboard vid shot with EX1, fast action and I didn't notice "jello effect" one time. I think EX1 or 3 are solid cameras and if I had the cash right now I would nor waste it on HM700.

Alex Humphrey · September 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM

I'm going to need to make the 4 hour drive (if I'm lucky) to a dealership to see one of these HPX-300s in person and hopefully some others. ( I live in the sticks)

The demo even from Pansonic shows jello vision as being terrible, yet everyone who has a modern 3 chip cmos says it's not a problem. If I'm relaly lucky they will have a JVC to compare side by side, but I haven't heard of any of the JVC line being in stock in Nor-cal on a regular basis except for special orders. I was honestly all set for the JVC HM700, but Panasonic lowered their price and have some rebates or other deals going on, and well, I always liked Panasonic gear as well. Though the P2 cards are still expensive per minute. Who knows, even the HPX-500 isn't much more than the JVC HM-700 at this point.

Robert Rogoz · September 26th, 2009, 09:37 AM

Alex, I would honestly give EX1 a try, if you have the cash. I think it is the best buy for a buck on a market and with MxR adapters media is not so expensive as P2. I think extra cost of EX3 could be converted to a 35 mm adopter instead.

Doug Tessler · September 26th, 2009, 10:34 AM

I sold my 700 a week ago with the canon lens and I was disappointed in the camera . I have the JVC hm100 and I have to say its less noisy and solid in the blacks . Its a great camera and I am making money with it and it was half the price of my 700 . I never liked the ex-1 because of its ergonomics horrible !! But my friend who has one ab ed my jvc 100 and his and except for low light shots the 100 looked better to me . H e was even surprised.

Good luck to you

Doug

Eric Deyerler · September 26th, 2009, 02:11 PM

I love to work with the HM700, my clients
like the picture-quality, the workflow and the noise is different
from Cam to Cam.

When I make shots for companies and TV-stations,
the HM700 get the right size to work,
the HM100 is to little for work,
the customers like to see a Pro-Cam, not
a size like a customer-holiday-cam.

Doug Tessler · September 26th, 2009, 02:32 PM

You know for most of my jobs they see the results and they love the results and the size with my clients doesn't matter . I have always owned big cameras and to be able to shoot anywhere at any time is liberating to me . So much freedom and yes I use a Red Camera too but I really love this JVC HM 100 . So size in my case size doesn't matter . lol

Cheers Eric

Doug

Eric Deyerler · September 26th, 2009, 04:03 PM

I also use some smaller Cams, one HDV, another for underwater or dusty areas.
For castings, videojournalist-shots the stations like my Canon XL1/JVC GY-DV5000.
And for the other we use Digibeta or something else.

Robert Rogoz · September 26th, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Deyerler

the noise is different from Cam to Cam.

Just wanted to ask why? This is something mentioned mostly with JVC, not other cameras. I would like to ask for an engineering explanation.

William Hohauser · September 26th, 2009, 06:18 PM

Has anyone compared the HM700 with the new firmware?

Alex Humphrey · September 26th, 2009, 08:31 PM

came across this for the HPX-300 jellovision

Just the average handheld pretty much ruined it for me, let alone anything i shoot for action sports or drama. Apparently the 1080 24p is the worst for rolling shutter, the 720 is reportedly not as bad. Panasonic 1080 24p is apparantly much WORSE than the Sony EX1/3 cameras.

I think i'm still looking at a HM700 or stepping over the 300 and go for a HPX500... but then we are talking lots of money, but it is 2/3 CCD.

Eric Deyerler · September 27th, 2009, 05:03 AM

or take a Sony PDW700/800, that will
be better then the HPX500.
Now I like to use the Quivktime mov's,
the DNR must set on and should work better
with FirmwareV0301, the last days I shot
with the improved DNR (settings ON), it looks good
with the noise, but the difference between ON and
OFF (DNR) is nearly hard to see.

Also the body from the HM700 comes more
to me with more worth, because the plasticparts of
the test HPX301 are broken, not so on the
HM700.

September 25th, 2009, 02:48 PM	#1
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	I guess I'll be ordering a HM-700? Well it looks like the TV station wants my old gear (including a JVC HD110 and DTE drive). After hearing some rumblings about the HM-700 having more video noise of ungained video here I looked around for some other cameras. Notably is the Pansonic HPX-300. It's been lowered in price , rebate and there is even an option for 25% down and 0 interest for 24 months. wow. pretty cool. maybe I should jump ship? So I went to the Panasonic site and realized the camera is P2 and Cmos. Two big strikes. But I never had a Cmos camera, I just know people complain about jello vision and the Sony fans says it doesn't exist in their EX-3 cameras. Then I saw at Panasonic video off their site addressing the issue. Learn about Panasonic's AG-HPX300 click on the flashband-skew-video If thier Cmos is as bad as that, I don't want anything to do with their camera. Or do you think they have exaggerated the skew factor so the viewer can understand it? Their answer in short was to avoid situations where it could be a factor. huh? Anyway, relooking at some of Tim Dashwood's demo video (ducks in the pond) I see less video noise there than my HD110 hdv has. So if anyone here wants to weigh in on any of the above, please chime in. Now the Sony EX-3 fans says they don't have any (hardly any) skew problems. Maybe sony has a computerized built in answer to unwobble the image, or maybe they don't shoot in a way that would create a problem with cmos skewing. For me, I do LOTS of sports and lots of panning and starting and stoppings as well as LOTS of nature shots at uber telephoto (MTF adapter with 100mm-300mm Nikkor lenses) so I think I need to rule out a Cmos imager. Too bad, I was starting to like the idea of a 100mbs AIC codec. But yes, to anyone still wondering, I still wold love to have a Panasonic Vari-Cam, but I think the Red cameras will come into their own before I'll have the money for a Vari-Cam. Because in short, AIN'T NOTUN PERFUCT!

September 25th, 2009, 10:14 PM	#2
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	My experience with CMOS cameras is that the jello is the worst on 1 chip cameras. I've done a few hand held concert events with Sony's non-EX 3-chip CMOS cameras and the jello problem was not noticeable at all. My first experience with it was with a very cheap palm cam that cost $200. Walking shots caused the jello to start wiggling. I have a Sony HD1000 1 chip CMOS HDV camera and I have not seen the jello effect there either but I have haven't done much action camera with it, that's usually reserved for a JVC HD100. Some clips from DSLR cameras show very bad jello with hand held shots but exceptionally beautiful images with steady camera work. CCD cameras never have the problem. The small amount of experience I've had with the HM700 shows that the noise is there but it gives a little life to the image in my opinion. The JVC HD camera images have always had a touch of Super16mm film quality to them especially if they are seen projected. Some other HD cameras almost look unreal. Just an aesthetic opinion. The HM700 has better color reproduction than your HD110 by the way. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 26th, 2009, 10:34 AM	#6
Doug Tessler Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: BOCa raton fl Posts: 342	I agree I sold my 700 a week ago with the canon lens and I was disappointed in the camera . I have the JVC hm100 and I have to say its less noisy and solid in the blacks . Its a great camera and I am making money with it and it was half the price of my 700 . I never liked the ex-1 because of its ergonomics horrible !! But my friend who has one ab ed my jvc 100 and his and except for low light shots the 100 looked better to me . H e was even surprised. Good luck to you Doug

September 26th, 2009, 02:32 PM	#8
Doug Tessler Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: BOCa raton fl Posts: 342	I agree to disagree Eric You know for most of my jobs they see the results and they love the results and the size with my clients doesn't matter . I have always owned big cameras and to be able to shoot anywhere at any time is liberating to me . So much freedom and yes I use a Red Camera too but I really love this JVC HM 100 . So size in my case size doesn't matter . lol Cheers Eric Doug

September 26th, 2009, 06:18 PM	#11
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Has anyone compared the HM700 with the new firmware? __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

September 25th, 2009, 11:20 PM	#3
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	I think so-called jello effect is a complete bs raised by pixel peepers. If it was so bad why is Discovery allowing EX1 or HPX300 in their lineup, but not HM700. I saw a snowboard vid shot with EX1, fast action and I didn't notice "jello effect" one time. I think EX1 or 3 are solid cameras and if I had the cash right now I would nor waste it on HM700.

September 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM	#4
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	I'm going to need to make the 4 hour drive (if I'm lucky) to a dealership to see one of these HPX-300s in person and hopefully some others. ( I live in the sticks) The demo even from Pansonic shows jello vision as being terrible, yet everyone who has a modern 3 chip cmos says it's not a problem. If I'm relaly lucky they will have a JVC to compare side by side, but I haven't heard of any of the JVC line being in stock in Nor-cal on a regular basis except for special orders. I was honestly all set for the JVC HM700, but Panasonic lowered their price and have some rebates or other deals going on, and well, I always liked Panasonic gear as well. Though the P2 cards are still expensive per minute. Who knows, even the HPX-500 isn't much more than the JVC HM-700 at this point.

September 26th, 2009, 09:37 AM	#5
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	Alex, I would honestly give EX1 a try, if you have the cash. I think it is the best buy for a buck on a market and with MxR adapters media is not so expensive as P2. I think extra cost of EX3 could be converted to a 35 mm adopter instead.

September 26th, 2009, 02:11 PM	#7
Eric Deyerler Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Schwabach (Germany - Bavaria) Posts: 199	I love to work with the HM700, my clients like the picture-quality, the workflow and the noise is different from Cam to Cam. When I make shots for companies and TV-stations, the HM700 get the right size to work, the HM100 is to little for work, the customers like to see a Pro-Cam, not a size like a customer-holiday-cam.

September 26th, 2009, 04:03 PM	#9
Eric Deyerler Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Schwabach (Germany - Bavaria) Posts: 199	I also use some smaller Cams, one HDV, another for underwater or dusty areas. For castings, videojournalist-shots the stations like my Canon XL1/JVC GY-DV5000. And for the other we use Digibeta or something else.

September 26th, 2009, 08:31 PM	#12
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	came across this for the HPX-300 jellovision HPX300 Night Shots on Vimeo Just the average handheld pretty much ruined it for me, let alone anything i shoot for action sports or drama. Apparently the 1080 24p is the worst for rolling shutter, the 720 is reportedly not as bad. Panasonic 1080 24p is apparantly much WORSE than the Sony EX1/3 cameras. I think i'm still looking at a HM700 or stepping over the 300 and go for a HPX500... but then we are talking lots of money, but it is 2/3 CCD.

September 27th, 2009, 05:03 AM	#13
Eric Deyerler Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Schwabach (Germany - Bavaria) Posts: 199	or take a Sony PDW700/800, that will be better then the HPX500. Now I like to use the Quivktime mov's, the DNR must set on and should work better with FirmwareV0301, the last days I shot with the improved DNR (settings ON), it looks good with the noise, but the difference between ON and OFF (DNR) is nearly hard to see. Also the body from the HM700 comes more to me with more worth, because the plasticparts of the test HPX301 are broken, not so on the HM700.