1st impressions on 700 & 100

Steve Mullen · September 20th, 2009, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Rogoz

Changing the subject- when are you planing on releasing your book Steve? I am interested!

As soon as I finish my 100/700 review for Broadcast Engineering -- I'll be able to finish it.

Thank you for asking.

The review has to be finished by the end of the month.

PS: FYI -- TV Asahi's new program called “Ride the Highway of the world” (Translated Name) is now the first TV Show in Japan entirely shoot with the Canon 5D MK II. Things are changing fast in the Broadcast world.

John De Rienzo · September 21st, 2009, 10:11 AM

Having come from an ex1 this is an extremely poor camera in my humble opinion. The design and layout is at best, flawed. The supplied mic can be bettered at a pound shop!, the zoom control is rendered unusable due to the inability to control it precisely.

The lcd screen is dreadful and of very poor quality.Dreadful implementation of zoom from lcd screen...The inbuilt mic seems to wobble when touched(may just be my camera!) the lens hood filter is a joke and really flimsy. Battery life could be far better.

Ok, the pluses! um.......it takes sd cards and can record at 35mb in the xdcam format.
It produces better pictures than my Sony FX1 under the right lighting conditions.It's small.
This could actually be a negative!

This is a toy compared to the EX1- those comparing any likeness need not bother...save up and buy the real thing. Seriously expensive for what it is. If you are reading this JVC, Get your act together and at least fix some of the issues re-usability through a firmware upgrade!

I am amazed at some of the positive online reviews of this camera by people in the industry we trust. Maybe they used a different camera to the one I am holding!

John De Rienzo

Doug Tessler · September 21st, 2009, 01:23 PM

Well to me its all been positive as i am making money and satisfying clients, The quality of video is great of course I wish the zoom controls were better and the other iris controls.
But all and all its making me money and keeping my clients happy

Doug

David Parks · September 21st, 2009, 01:54 PM

Same here Doug. I've had mine for a week and a half and the camera has already paid for itself. IMO, it's not accurate to even compare the HM 100 to the Sony EX1. I mean the EX1 is twice as much money. Every camera has its short comings. It's what you do with the camera that matters. If you can't get pretty HD video with this camera then it is not the camera's fault. While I really don't like the fact there isn't a iris ring, I got used to the button and toggle wheel. It's not a show stopper unless you let it be.

All in all great results for just over $3,000. Mine was an open box from BH and in perfect condition.
Cheers.

Harry Pallenberg · September 21st, 2009, 04:19 PM

[QUOTE=Enzo Giobbé;1373418]I was usually based out of Cinecittà, and got an apartment in the centro storico of Rome. As you probably know, the movie industry is pretty much dead in Italy these days. A far cry from 25 years ago when I was the DP on two spaghetti westerns being shot at the same time on adjacent lots. I loved working in that two perf pulldown Techniscope format.

True - and so sad...

A/B comparisons are always painful when the bad cam is yours :(

LOL - also true & sad... luckily it was a loaner...

It was very interesting because we each lit our own "set", asked actor friends to come down (free catered lunch :), shot our own and each others sets with the different cams, watched the editing process for each type of system, and than the next day, saw the results (after a film transfer) at one of the better local screening rooms.

NOW that sounds like a great test / fun experience! Also sounds liek a great shootout... but I guess that was not allowed... I won't ask for details... but please feel free to give us some....

John Mitchell · September 23rd, 2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Pallenberg

After a 15 hour day on blazing hot sun... did not feel much up to doing stuff today. the camera did well in the 105 + degree heat (unless thats the audio issue - more later).

1st thought is that it is cool to shoot on the HDSC cards - but also a bit of a pain - I was having to swap (the JVC rep only had 4 gig cards) often, then dump on to laptop then as I am paranoid copy onto firewire drive. Then this AM had to copy onto backup raid and clear the laptop... all this copying & deleting made me a bit nervous - especially in the field. Granted if we owned the set-up I would have 16 or 32 gig cards and be done with it, but still all the hard-drives scare me.

2nd thought - I really only looked at bits of footage as I was moving them - but there is noise in it - strange - even in the blazing sun... will have to look more / harder. Also some SERIOUS purple fringing. And the few shots I tried on full auto tended to blow out.

Harry - it has been my experience with the JVC 101E that at f16 it is noticeably soft and noisy (that was the crappy 16x stock Fuji). The combination of small pixel sites and a small appertures really doesn't mix well. Although Enzo seems to think the 700 may be worse than the 100 series, it didn't seem too bad in the shots Tim whipped off as a test. Mind you, I haven't really looked at them that critically. Disappointing if the camera is noisy cause the form factor is so much better than the Sony EX series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Pallenberg

3rd Auto focus did not lock on unless it was pretty bright.

Does the 700 have autofocus or are you talking about the 100 here?

Harry Pallenberg · September 23rd, 2009, 11:03 AM

re: auto focus...

on the 700 I meant the focus assist / edge peaking feature - had to be bright & pretty high contrast to work

on the 100 I meant actual auto focus...

sorry for the confusion...

and yes the form factor is SOOOO much better than the EX3

Robert Rogoz · September 23rd, 2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Pallenberg

and yes the form factor is SOOOO much better than the EX3

No form factor can make up for noisy footage. I watched footage shot with EX1 and you can't even compare with HM700- honestly my old HD100 produced better quality then Hm700. Interestingly enough my HM100 produces less grainy picture then 700! I don't know what the hype is, but 700 is a complete dud as far as picture quality goes.

Harry Pallenberg · September 23rd, 2009, 02:43 PM

I know... its such a bummer. Did anyone hear read (link plz) about new noise reduction on 700's?

sorry found the link -

John Mitchell · September 23rd, 2009, 07:36 PM

Guys I just went back and had a look at Tim's footage of the geese on my Avid (the 1080i60 version) and I'm struggling to see the noise you guys are talking about. Where I would have expected to see it (in the blue sky and in the blacks) I'm really not seeing much at all.

On the other hand when I look at images shot on the GY-HD250 and captured with the nanoflash on Convergent Designs site I see a lot of noise and the image looks radically soft (buffalo1)

Convergent Design, experts in HDMI, SD, HD, and HDV

I'm assuming this was shot with the lens stopped too far down, but I'm really not seeing how that affects the noise floor unless heat is a factor here (clearly by the heatwave you can see it's hot). This of course assumes the 250 has much the same block as the 700...

What gives? Any ideas?

Enzo Giobbé · September 30th, 2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Pallenberg

I know... its such a bummer. Did anyone hear read (link plz) about new noise reduction on 700's?

Harry, the noise has been slightly reduced, but it's still there.

Funny, when I first borrowed a 700 from one of the big retail houses in LA, I noticed the noise right off, so I called JVC here and asked them about that issue. The answer was "We have not heard of that problem".

Now, JVC has always been great. Easy to call someone up and get answers (and they do return calls promptly if they are on another line), but in this case, it's as if the right hand was not talking to the left hand, so I had to go a little higher up and talked to JVC Japan.

They were well aware of the noise problem, and perplexed by it as well. The engineer I talked to said it was somewhat the same problem that plagued the 200 series and was addressed in the 200B hardware upgrade, but the 700 was proving to be much more difficult. As they made one change, it also affected some of the other camera operations.

The two 700's I bought were shipped to me from Japan, and were the new hardware A models. One had the A production firmware, the other had a beta firmware. While the noise was not near as bad as the borrowed 700 I had originally tested, it was still there, and very noticeable on a screening room screen (but was pretty much gone on a 65" LCD monitor, that showed excessive noise on the original 700 I tested).

I think they will eventually get it all sorted out.

Enzo Giobbé · September 30th, 2009, 02:59 PM

[QUOTE=Harry Pallenberg;1381734NOW that sounds like a great test / fun experience! Also sounds liek a great shootout... but I guess that was not allowed... I won't ask for details... but please feel free to give us some....[/QUOTE]

Harry, I can't say much, but I can say that it certainly evened out some of my biases.

You have to look at those two days as both testing camera SYSTEMS and the individual cameras themselves.

While I have worked with all three camera extensively, my bias has lately been toward the RED, mainly because of the price to performance aspect.

If you were to look at the results from a systems standpoint, all three camera faired very well. The Genesis is the oldest design, but has great support and a full compliment of excellent optics and ancillary gear. I go way back with Panavision (the original Panaflex and R200).

The Arri is the newest design, also has great support and a full compliment of excellent optics and ancillary gear. Arri is a very dedicated company that will, and does, give you great personal support. Like the Panavision, I go way back with the Arri line, starting with a 2B when I was a kid and up through the various 35 BL's I owned (but not academy 16 or S16mm, the Eclair NPR was my choice there).

The RED is always "newest" (but a slightly older initial design than the D-21) because they stay on top of the firmware/software upgrades. I love the RED, but it has had its share of teething problems. The RED also has great support, new add-ons announced almost weekly, and a philosophy not shared by either Panavision or Arri. When you buy a RED, it's like joining a family. Since the RED accepts various lenses, you have a great choice of optics as well.

Which one is best is an individual choice. What I consider best, may not be what you consider best (and yes, all four of us agreed that one camera was just slightly better overall image wise).

Now as to the cameras that were brought in (the Sony EX3 and my JVC 700). The Sony was really a huge surprise (image wise). Very, very nice image, but it's plagued by very poor ergonomics and some of the controls could be better thought out. Sony calls it a "Semi Shoulder" cam, but since I lack a semi shoulder to hold it, it's strictly a tripod cam.

The 700 has the best control layout and is the most ergonomic camera of them all, If you have to go handheld, nothing works as well as the JVC shoulder cam line, nothing. Everybody agreed that the 700 was the best price to image quality camera, and if it were not for the noise factor, would have gotten the nod over the Sony.

But let's face it, neither the Sony or JVC is in the same class as the "big boys", nor do I think that they were ever meant to be.

Justin Ferar · September 30th, 2009, 04:21 PM

JVC and Sony should just get it over with and have a child- The EX-700...

Sony EX image in the JVC form factor. But then again that would pretty much annihilate sales of the rest of Sony's shoulder mounted line.

Enzo Giobbé · October 2nd, 2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Ferar

JVC and Sony should just get it over with and have a child- The EX-700...

Sony EX image in the JVC form factor. But then again that would pretty much annihilate sales of the rest of Sony's shoulder mounted line.

Justin, great idea! And yes you are right, Sony is very market savvy about not having one camera line "bump" into the other (and that will be their ultimate undoing, re: Walkman).

It's all a moot point anyway. By this time next year we will all be shooting the RED Scarlet :)

Jerry Porter · October 2nd, 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé

Justin, great idea! And yes you are right, Sony is very market savvy about not having one camera line "bump" into the other (and that will be their ultimate undoing, re: Walkman).

It's all a moot point anyway. By this time next year we will all be shooting the RED Scarlet :)

We can only HOPE!!!

September 21st, 2009, 01:23 PM	#18
Doug Tessler Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: BOCa raton fl Posts: 342	The JVC hm 100 Well to me its all been positive as i am making money and satisfying clients, The quality of video is great of course I wish the zoom controls were better and the other iris controls. But all and all its making me money and keeping my clients happy Doug

September 21st, 2009, 01:54 PM	#19
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Same here Doug. I've had mine for a week and a half and the camera has already paid for itself. IMO, it's not accurate to even compare the HM 100 to the Sony EX1. I mean the EX1 is twice as much money. Every camera has its short comings. It's what you do with the camera that matters. If you can't get pretty HD video with this camera then it is not the camera's fault. While I really don't like the fact there isn't a iris ring, I got used to the button and toggle wheel. It's not a show stopper unless you let it be. All in all great results for just over $3,000. Mine was an open box from BH and in perfect condition. Cheers. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

September 23rd, 2009, 02:43 PM	#24
Harry Pallenberg Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 122	Noise Reduction? I know... its such a bummer. Did anyone hear read (link plz) about new noise reduction on 700's? sorry found the link -

September 30th, 2009, 02:59 PM	#27
Enzo Giobbé Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA and Roma, Italia Posts: 155	Not a hootout, but... [QUOTE=Harry Pallenberg;1381734NOW that sounds like a great test / fun experience! Also sounds liek a great shootout... but I guess that was not allowed... I won't ask for details... but please feel free to give us some....[/QUOTE] Harry, I can't say much, but I can say that it certainly evened out some of my biases. You have to look at those two days as both testing camera SYSTEMS and the individual cameras themselves. While I have worked with all three camera extensively, my bias has lately been toward the RED, mainly because of the price to performance aspect. If you were to look at the results from a systems standpoint, all three camera faired very well. The Genesis is the oldest design, but has great support and a full compliment of excellent optics and ancillary gear. I go way back with Panavision (the original Panaflex and R200). The Arri is the newest design, also has great support and a full compliment of excellent optics and ancillary gear. Arri is a very dedicated company that will, and does, give you great personal support. Like the Panavision, I go way back with the Arri line, starting with a 2B when I was a kid and up through the various 35 BL's I owned (but not academy 16 or S16mm, the Eclair NPR was my choice there). The RED is always "newest" (but a slightly older initial design than the D-21) because they stay on top of the firmware/software upgrades. I love the RED, but it has had its share of teething problems. The RED also has great support, new add-ons announced almost weekly, and a philosophy not shared by either Panavision or Arri. When you buy a RED, it's like joining a family. Since the RED accepts various lenses, you have a great choice of optics as well. Which one is best is an individual choice. What I consider best, may not be what you consider best (and yes, all four of us agreed that one camera was just slightly better overall image wise). Now as to the cameras that were brought in (the Sony EX3 and my JVC 700). The Sony was really a huge surprise (image wise). Very, very nice image, but it's plagued by very poor ergonomics and some of the controls could be better thought out. Sony calls it a "Semi Shoulder" cam, but since I lack a semi shoulder to hold it, it's strictly a tripod cam. The 700 has the best control layout and is the most ergonomic camera of them all, If you have to go handheld, nothing works as well as the JVC shoulder cam line, nothing. Everybody agreed that the 700 was the best price to image quality camera, and if it were not for the noise factor, would have gotten the nod over the Sony. But let's face it, neither the Sony or JVC is in the same class as the "big boys", nor do I think that they were ever meant to be. __________________ Enzo Giobbé www.enzogiobbe.com

September 30th, 2009, 04:21 PM	#28
Justin Ferar Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Larkspur, CA Posts: 378	JVC and Sony should just get it over with and have a child- The EX-700... Sony EX image in the JVC form factor. But then again that would pretty much annihilate sales of the rest of Sony's shoulder mounted line. __________________ www.justinferar.com www.weddingsonfilm.com

September 21st, 2009, 10:11 AM	#17
John De Rienzo Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: London Posts: 313	Having come from an ex1 this is an extremely poor camera in my humble opinion. The design and layout is at best, flawed. The supplied mic can be bettered at a pound shop!, the zoom control is rendered unusable due to the inability to control it precisely. The lcd screen is dreadful and of very poor quality.Dreadful implementation of zoom from lcd screen...The inbuilt mic seems to wobble when touched(may just be my camera!) the lens hood filter is a joke and really flimsy. Battery life could be far better. Ok, the pluses! um.......it takes sd cards and can record at 35mb in the xdcam format. It produces better pictures than my Sony FX1 under the right lighting conditions.It's small. This could actually be a negative! This is a toy compared to the EX1- those comparing any likeness need not bother...save up and buy the real thing. Seriously expensive for what it is. If you are reading this JVC, Get your act together and at least fix some of the issues re-usability through a firmware upgrade! I am amazed at some of the positive online reviews of this camera by people in the industry we trust. Maybe they used a different camera to the one I am holding! John De Rienzo

September 21st, 2009, 04:19 PM	#20
Harry Pallenberg Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 122	[QUOTE=Enzo Giobbé;1373418]I was usually based out of Cinecittà, and got an apartment in the centro storico of Rome. As you probably know, the movie industry is pretty much dead in Italy these days. A far cry from 25 years ago when I was the DP on two spaghetti westerns being shot at the same time on adjacent lots. I loved working in that two perf pulldown Techniscope format. True - and so sad... A/B comparisons are always painful when the bad cam is yours :( LOL - also true & sad... luckily it was a loaner... It was very interesting because we each lit our own "set", asked actor friends to come down (free catered lunch :), shot our own and each others sets with the different cams, watched the editing process for each type of system, and than the next day, saw the results (after a film transfer) at one of the better local screening rooms. NOW that sounds like a great test / fun experience! Also sounds liek a great shootout... but I guess that was not allowed... I won't ask for details... but please feel free to give us some....

September 23rd, 2009, 11:03 AM	#22
Harry Pallenberg Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 122	re: auto focus... on the 700 I meant the focus assist / edge peaking feature - had to be bright & pretty high contrast to work on the 100 I meant actual auto focus... sorry for the confusion... and yes the form factor is SOOOO much better than the EX3

September 23rd, 2009, 07:36 PM	#25
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Guys I just went back and had a look at Tim's footage of the geese on my Avid (the 1080i60 version) and I'm struggling to see the noise you guys are talking about. Where I would have expected to see it (in the blue sky and in the blacks) I'm really not seeing much at all. On the other hand when I look at images shot on the GY-HD250 and captured with the nanoflash on Convergent Designs site I see a lot of noise and the image looks radically soft (buffalo1) Convergent Design, experts in HDMI, SD, HD, and HDV I'm assuming this was shot with the lens stopped too far down, but I'm really not seeing how that affects the noise floor unless heat is a factor here (clearly by the heatwave you can see it's hot). This of course assumes the 250 has much the same block as the 700... What gives? Any ideas?