Tutorial DVD or Blu-Ray? at DVinfo.net

Tim Dashwood · May 16th, 2009, 11:25 AM

We are currently in production on Volume II of "The Complete Guide to ProHD" featuring the HM100 & HM700 cameras. The last time we produced NTSC region-free DVDs which were universally playable around the world. We had prepared PAL versions but the demand was so low we couldn't justify a minimum replication order of 1000 units.
When we demonstrated features that affected HD details we would do a 1:1 pixel blowup to demonstrate the effects, which I think was as effective as having it in HD.
I only received a few requests last time for Blu-Ray, but we are actually considering it this time as the primary format. A little market research is required before we commit to the higher replication costs.

I've also included some web-based options in the poll above. We of course will be releasing more free content but there's no way we can do that with the almost 4 hours of material that was included on the DVD.

If you're on the fence you can choose more than one option in the poll.

Jack Walker · May 16th, 2009, 11:35 AM

I would need a standard DVD as I don't have a way to play Blu-Ray disks.

Also, standard DVDs could be played in virtually any computer, laptap, or set top player, making the DVD more valuable as a reference, not just a Blu-Ray viewing experience.

Tim Dashwood · May 16th, 2009, 12:01 PM

I tend to agree with you Jack. The information itself is more important than seeing in HD. I would still like to get a grasp on how many people shooting HD have actually upgraded to Blu-Ray and an HDTV. A trip to my local Best-Buy would suggest "everyone" has but I don't think that is the reality.

Bob Richardson · May 16th, 2009, 12:18 PM

I read an article a few months ago that at least one duplicating service was _planning_ on stamping dual-format discs which were Blu-Ray on one side, and could be flipped for the same content in DVD format.

I have an HDTV but haven't settled on a Blu-Ray player yet as that tech is still on a rapidly-declining price curve and the feature set is still expanding. (Plus, I have no burner, so I'm not compelled to get a player in the living room until I get a burner.)

I suspect a number of fence-sitters are out there... personally, I'd be willing to pay $5 or $10 extra for a training course now, if it came with both DVD and Blu-Ray media.

It doesn't have to be the specialized dual-format disc, it could be two discs. With a niche market such as yours, there is little risk of people just giving away the 2nd disc. The big studios, of course, don't produce two discs in one package because people would be tempted to give away their unused copy... that's why one producer has come up with the flip-format idea... it's something you can't give away.

Tim Dashwood · May 16th, 2009, 02:07 PM

Ironically it was JVC who invented the hybrid DVD/Blu-Ray technology about 5 years ago but I don't think it was ever accepted by the standards organizations. Their technology allowed for both formats to exist on the same side of the disc. The double-sided idea is interesting. I'll start exploring that as well.

BTW I think the best cost vs functionality Blu-Ray player is the PS3. It also acts as a great media player that can be linked to the edit suite via Nullriver Medialink (or similar.)
The only thing it can't do (yet) is play native XDCAM EX MP4 or Quicktime wrapped files. wmv & m2t no problem.

Robert Rogoz · May 16th, 2009, 04:03 PM

I have a blu-ray and it is the bomb! There is a big difference (at least for me) in picture and sound quality. I must also state I am not a pixel peeper. Tim, you must make a judgment call as far as the expense of BD print vs DVD print.
I would like to see HM100 and 700 as separate DVD's, as I am not buying HM700.
However at the end I voted for web-based distribution. Particularly iTunes idea would be great, as I'd buy only the parts I want.

William Hohauser · May 16th, 2009, 09:18 PM

Don't bother with Blu-Ray, this year at least. Recordable Blu-Ray is still too expensive. All the home distribution HD work I do goes to DVD still. The only request I get for Blu-Ray is from an independent film distributor but the 95% of the screening rooms / theaters with HD projectors around this country don't have Blu-Ray so the distributor can't go that route yet.

Marcello Mazzilli · May 17th, 2009, 12:16 PM

I agree on what people are saying about blueray, still.. a 10$ difference is not much for the opportunity of dealing with all the techinical issues connected to our cameras. Many are about quality, detail, contrast, noise, etc... and having the ability to view a Blueray done by a professional DOP is a nice opportunity. I suggest that you edit and finalize in Blueray, do the 1000 copies (or more) in DVD but keep a Blueray master. I think here in this forum (professional users) can do with a home-made copy (Verbatim sells 25 Gb bluerays at 6 euros) without cover etc... Maybe that can be a compromise solution. I bet you are doing an HD master anyway.

David Hardy · May 17th, 2009, 01:34 PM

An extra $10, or around 15 percent, for all non-US markets?

Tim Dashwood · May 17th, 2009, 06:56 PM

The extra $10 built into the International version is to offset the costs of transcribing, translating and subtitling in French, Spanish and possibly other languages. I'm not sure how important this is to users of a camera with menus in English? I would guess there is an advantage for comprehension to reading a translation (however poor) in your native language. We did it last time but it was a pain and delayed the final printing by weeks.
Also, I found a replicator who will do a smaller order (still 500 units) but the cost is still considerably higher. With all things considered and the feedback received so far PAL DVD probably won't be an option.

The more I crunch the numbers on the Blu-Ray the more it seems like a big headache with AACS licensing fees and a limited number of replication facilities.

I will still of course shoot and post everything in HD (like last time) but I may author in Adobe Encore this time to facilitate DVD and interactive Flash. I think we can do some sort of customer authenticator with Flash but the initial download would be very large.

Marcello... the one-off BD-R idea might be an option for the few people interested, but the price will probably have to exceed $99/unit, at least until recordable BD media comes down in price.

Ian Skurrie · May 17th, 2009, 07:40 PM

"The more I crunch the numbers on the Blu-Ray the more it seems like a big headache with AACS licensing fees and a limited number of replication facilities."

I was under the impression that to replicate Blue Ray was completely impractical for small producers as the licensing was made the cost was prohibitive.

Tim could you give me an idea of costings inc license fee as I might be mistaken.

regards
Ian Skurrie

John McDonald · May 18th, 2009, 03:59 AM

I've just purchased a new 17" MacBook Pro and will shortly buy a HM100 and would love a dvd like you are talking about.

Interestingly, the new MacBook Pro doesn't have a Blueray player, and logic would suggest that many(?) HM100 users will be using Apple products, or at least that is why I am considering buying my first ever JVC camera.

So Blueray doesn't make any sense for me as a international consumer. I edit on a computer so want to watch my training materials on my editing suite aka ripple training.

My 2 cents anyway!

Marcello Mazzilli · May 18th, 2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

T
Marcello... the one-off BD-R idea might be an option for the few people interested, but the price will probably have to exceed $99/unit, at least until recordable BD media comes down in price.

I found Verbatim 25 Gb at around 5.50 € + VAT (NIERLE MEDIA Webshop | Rohlinge (CD-R, DVD-R, DVD+R etc.), Speicherkarten, CD-/DVD-Hüllen, USB-Zubehör uvm. if you buy the 25x box). I don't think there is that much difference with high quantities.

Joe Carney · May 18th, 2009, 08:51 AM

Quicktime on DVD data disks? QT has interactive features also.

Jack Walker · May 18th, 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Skurrie

"The more I crunch the numbers on the Blu-Ray the more it seems like a big headache with AACS licensing fees and a limited number of replication facilities."

I was under the impression that to replicate Blue Ray was completely impractical for small producers as the licensing was made the cost was prohibitive.

Tim could you give me an idea of costings inc license fee as I might be mistaken.

regards
Ian Skurrie

Here is an overview of costs and licensing fees:
Blu-ray Blues: Navigating the troublesome realities of Blu-ray licensing and distribution.

View Poll Results: What is your preferred format for "The Complete Guide to ProHD Volume II?"
$59.95 NTSC DVD (region free)	25	32.47%
$69.95 PAL DVD (regions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)	8	10.39%
$69.95 1080p Blu-Ray (region free)	17	22.08%
$39.95 Flash Web-based Subscription to all content	17	22.08%
$ 2.95 iTunes Dowloadable iPod Mini-Tutorials	23	29.87%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

May 16th, 2009, 11:25 AM	#1
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Tutorial DVD or Blu-Ray? We are currently in production on Volume II of "The Complete Guide to ProHD" featuring the HM100 & HM700 cameras. The last time we produced NTSC region-free DVDs which were universally playable around the world. We had prepared PAL versions but the demand was so low we couldn't justify a minimum replication order of 1000 units. When we demonstrated features that affected HD details we would do a 1:1 pixel blowup to demonstrate the effects, which I think was as effective as having it in HD. I only received a few requests last time for Blu-Ray, but we are actually considering it this time as the primary format. A little market research is required before we commit to the higher replication costs. I've also included some web-based options in the poll above. We of course will be releasing more free content but there's no way we can do that with the almost 4 hours of material that was included on the DVD. If you're on the fence you can choose more than one option in the poll. __________________ Tim Dashwood

May 16th, 2009, 12:01 PM	#3
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	I tend to agree with you Jack. The information itself is more important than seeing in HD. I would still like to get a grasp on how many people shooting HD have actually upgraded to Blu-Ray and an HDTV. A trip to my local Best-Buy would suggest "everyone" has but I don't think that is the reality. __________________ Tim Dashwood

May 16th, 2009, 02:07 PM	#5
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Ironically it was JVC who invented the hybrid DVD/Blu-Ray technology about 5 years ago but I don't think it was ever accepted by the standards organizations. Their technology allowed for both formats to exist on the same side of the disc. The double-sided idea is interesting. I'll start exploring that as well. BTW I think the best cost vs functionality Blu-Ray player is the PS3. It also acts as a great media player that can be linked to the edit suite via Nullriver Medialink (or similar.) The only thing it can't do (yet) is play native XDCAM EX MP4 or Quicktime wrapped files. wmv & m2t no problem. __________________ Tim Dashwood

May 16th, 2009, 09:18 PM	#7
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Don't bother with Blu-Ray, this year at least. Recordable Blu-Ray is still too expensive. All the home distribution HD work I do goes to DVD still. The only request I get for Blu-Ray is from an independent film distributor but the 95% of the screening rooms / theaters with HD projectors around this country don't have Blu-Ray so the distributor can't go that route yet. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

May 16th, 2009, 11:35 AM	#2
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	I would need a standard DVD as I don't have a way to play Blu-Ray disks. Also, standard DVDs could be played in virtually any computer, laptap, or set top player, making the DVD more valuable as a reference, not just a Blu-Ray viewing experience.

May 16th, 2009, 12:18 PM	#4
Bob Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 178	I read an article a few months ago that at least one duplicating service was _planning_ on stamping dual-format discs which were Blu-Ray on one side, and could be flipped for the same content in DVD format. I have an HDTV but haven't settled on a Blu-Ray player yet as that tech is still on a rapidly-declining price curve and the feature set is still expanding. (Plus, I have no burner, so I'm not compelled to get a player in the living room until I get a burner.) I suspect a number of fence-sitters are out there... personally, I'd be willing to pay $5 or $10 extra for a training course now, if it came with both DVD and Blu-Ray media. It doesn't have to be the specialized dual-format disc, it could be two discs. With a niche market such as yours, there is little risk of people just giving away the 2nd disc. The big studios, of course, don't produce two discs in one package because people would be tempted to give away their unused copy... that's why one producer has come up with the flip-format idea... it's something you can't give away.

May 16th, 2009, 04:03 PM	#6
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	I have a blu-ray and it is the bomb! There is a big difference (at least for me) in picture and sound quality. I must also state I am not a pixel peeper. Tim, you must make a judgment call as far as the expense of BD print vs DVD print. I would like to see HM100 and 700 as separate DVD's, as I am not buying HM700. However at the end I voted for web-based distribution. Particularly iTunes idea would be great, as I'd buy only the parts I want.

May 17th, 2009, 12:16 PM	#8
Marcello Mazzilli Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ITALIA Posts: 416	I agree on what people are saying about blueray, still.. a 10$ difference is not much for the opportunity of dealing with all the techinical issues connected to our cameras. Many are about quality, detail, contrast, noise, etc... and having the ability to view a Blueray done by a professional DOP is a nice opportunity. I suggest that you edit and finalize in Blueray, do the 1000 copies (or more) in DVD but keep a Blueray master. I think here in this forum (professional users) can do with a home-made copy (Verbatim sells 25 Gb bluerays at 6 euros) without cover etc... Maybe that can be a compromise solution. I bet you are doing an HD master anyway.

May 17th, 2009, 01:34 PM	#9
David Hardy New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Basel, Switzerland Posts: 18	An extra $10, or around 15 percent, for all non-US markets?

May 17th, 2009, 06:56 PM	#10
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	The extra $10 built into the International version is to offset the costs of transcribing, translating and subtitling in French, Spanish and possibly other languages. I'm not sure how important this is to users of a camera with menus in English? I would guess there is an advantage for comprehension to reading a translation (however poor) in your native language. We did it last time but it was a pain and delayed the final printing by weeks. Also, I found a replicator who will do a smaller order (still 500 units) but the cost is still considerably higher. With all things considered and the feedback received so far PAL DVD probably won't be an option. The more I crunch the numbers on the Blu-Ray the more it seems like a big headache with AACS licensing fees and a limited number of replication facilities. I will still of course shoot and post everything in HD (like last time) but I may author in Adobe Encore this time to facilitate DVD and interactive Flash. I think we can do some sort of customer authenticator with Flash but the initial download would be very large. Marcello... the one-off BD-R idea might be an option for the few people interested, but the price will probably have to exceed $99/unit, at least until recordable BD media comes down in price. __________________ Tim Dashwood

May 17th, 2009, 07:40 PM	#11
Ian Skurrie Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mooroolbark, Victoria, AU Posts: 63	licensing fees "The more I crunch the numbers on the Blu-Ray the more it seems like a big headache with AACS licensing fees and a limited number of replication facilities." I was under the impression that to replicate Blue Ray was completely impractical for small producers as the licensing was made the cost was prohibitive. Tim could you give me an idea of costings inc license fee as I might be mistaken. regards Ian Skurrie

May 18th, 2009, 03:59 AM	#12
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	I've just purchased a new 17" MacBook Pro and will shortly buy a HM100 and would love a dvd like you are talking about. Interestingly, the new MacBook Pro doesn't have a Blueray player, and logic would suggest that many(?) HM100 users will be using Apple products, or at least that is why I am considering buying my first ever JVC camera. So Blueray doesn't make any sense for me as a international consumer. I edit on a computer so want to watch my training materials on my editing suite aka ripple training. My 2 cents anyway!

May 18th, 2009, 08:51 AM	#14
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Quicktime on DVD data disks? QT has interactive features also. __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!