New GY-HM700 Camcorder

Stuart Nimmo · January 28th, 2009, 03:16 PM

Yes, that was about it David. Betacam SX was really a disaster, all sorts of edit problems, (sync and so on). As a format it seemed to be very prone to head clogging too. Then came the The DSR 500 which produced 'muddy' DSR 500 images. I guess I was used to Digi Betacam so there was really no comparison. However, the 500 did tend to fall apart too, sometimes leaving things like plastic switch covers and eye pieces trailing behind. The XLR "box" on the back was in fact part of the chassis. If, as happened, someone managed to stand on an audio cable while the operator was moving forward, instead of pulling the XLR plug off (bad enough), it tended to yank the back off the chassis off, and that was the end of camera.

Another thing was their tendency to '500 Alzheimer’s disease', the only cure was to switch the it off and remove all power sources completely for a few minutes and then start from scratch; great fun on a live OB!
For those of us who came from BVW 400s they were very badly built, not nearly rugged enough for news work; but at that price I guess they were considered disposable.

I think you've listed the real problem David: the sheer multiplicity of formats. In the format wars there have been ‘odd’ deals being done to lure a big name broadcaster into re-equipping with a particular product. I need to be careful about what I say here, but one major French deal springs to mind. The end result has been bucket loads of incompatibility in an industry that simply couldn't afford that mistake again. It's still relentless and yet the obvious truth is that nobody can possibly afford it now.

Surely the truth is that if the program(me) is really good it isn't judged by it's format, it's watched. If it's bad, it still isn't judged by the format, that isn't going to save it. People switch away no matter what it was shot on. Most homes wind the chroma up to near bursting point and have no idea what the image shape should actually be anyway.

Shaun Roemich · January 28th, 2009, 03:42 PM

Ah, the much lamented SX...

To be completely fair, the images were quite acceptable when played back long form from tape. Upon edit, though...

Interesting though that Stuart had issues with head clogs. My experience with SX was working news for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation here in Canada and we got tremendous reuse out of tapes and untold hours of use without head clogs. If you watched the error correction indicator on the feeder decks (75's?), there was a lot of error correction going on with some tapes...

Please don't get me wrong: SX was NOT a production format, IMHO. But for ENG work, it was sure easier to work with than SP in a fast paced news environment.

Glen Vandermolen · January 28th, 2009, 04:08 PM

We've been using Beta SX in our commercial productions for over 7 years now. In all that time, I've never lost video to a camera (or deck) error. Not once. It has proven to be a robust and dependable format. It has never caused any problems with our NLEs.
Not production worthy? We've certainly made our money off of it.
That said, we've gone to P2 at work, and I don't ever want to shoot on tape again.

Shaun Roemich · January 28th, 2009, 07:53 PM

There you go: ask 1000 people a question and you'll get 1001 answers. There certainly is something to be said about the robust nature of professional 1/2" tape...

I can't say I've seen much SX in a non-linear environment but it doesn't hold up well to linear editing. The colour seems to be the first to go. One nice thing about SX was the pre-read function that allowed you to do A to A dissolves. Pretty advanced in it's day.

Johnny Clark · January 28th, 2009, 09:43 PM

Let's get this thread back to the current century!

Any news Craig? It's almost February.
You aren't holding anything back are you Tim?
You've probably already shot your next project with one of these bad boys.....

Craig Seeman · January 29th, 2009, 04:34 PM

Odd that people are saying that about the photo.

It's JVC that's displaying it!

::: Welcome to JVC ::: > ????? > ProHD ???? > New GY-HM700 & HM100 Camcorder

JVC Korea apparently
As you can see there's the 700 photo, the 100 photo beneath that. The Press Release below that in English.
Apparently JVC is OK with showing the photo.

Craig Seeman · January 29th, 2009, 04:43 PM

Rather than pointing to another (possibly competing) forum I thought it wise to upload the file directly here. You can see in my previous post that the pic is coming from a currently legit JVC site so they aren't concealing it... haven't pulled it, etc. My only guess is they'd prefer people to point to the JVC site itself so I'm qualifying the pic with a post to JVC site rather than an unauthorized location.

Justin Ferar · January 29th, 2009, 04:57 PM

Well I've always said that JVC has the best form factor. Besides 2 HD 200's I also own a Canon A1. I commonly intercut the JVC's and the Canon and I have always noticed that the Canon has a significantly cleaner image (less noise). So I've been wishing for a JVC camera with Canon's codec.

Fast forward to today and it looks like were getting a JVC form factor with a Sony codec which at 35 mb/s may be the best of all HDV codecs.

Very much looking forward to this camera!

Chris Hurd · January 29th, 2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Odd that people are saying that about the photo.

It's JVC that's displaying it!

Regardless of the obvious inconsistency between JVC's various corporate nationalities, I pretty much have to comply with JVC America when it comes to things like this. I have a query into them right now seeking a clarification on that image, and if it disappears, then you'll know what their answer was.

I can't easily defy their requests, because they know where I live. These guys wear suits and ties and they're really polite and all, but ultimately they're corporate... which means that any decision I make about their intellectual property that goes against their wishes could easily land me bound and gagged in the trunk of Carl Hicks' Bonneville, with Lon Mass in the back seat directing him to "take a drive out to the lake."

Craig Seeman · January 29th, 2009, 07:47 PM

Chris,
That's why I was wondering about the image vs the link to the JVC Korea site. That's why I was thinking the link, divorced from the site, might be subject to question (and even removal) given that the USA JVC site is not showing the image.

The JVC Korea site presents a different question that they need to think about. JVC Korea could implement IP detection preventing the site from being viewed outside a country or region. Actually many media based sites do that.

Currently the JVC Korea site with the image is easy enough to find using Google in the USA so JVC Korea apparently has no interest in blocking it or JVC USA hasn't (yet?) taken any steps to prevent finding JVC Korea's site (which has the press release in English no less!) through a USA Google search.

Certainly JVC USA has a right to control use of images it owns but it would be odd for JVC USA to claim right to block a link to JVC Korea site itself (which contains the image) when the link is still very much publicly available in the USA itself.

At the very least you should point out the JVC Korea link's current availability in the USA (as a courtesy to JVC USA at least) so they can decide how to handle internally.

If both the image and link disappear at least we'll learn something about the odd communications (or lack of) between JVC USA and JVC Korea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Regardless of the obvious inconsistency between JVC's various corporate nationalities, I pretty much have to comply with JVC America when it comes to things like this. I have a query into them right now seeking a clarification on that image, and if it disappears, then you'll know what their answer was.

I can't easily defy their requests, because they know where I live. These guys wear suits and ties and they're really polite and all, but ultimately they're corporate... which means that any decision I make about their intellectual property that goes against their wishes could easily land me bound and gagged in the trunk of Carl Hicks' Bonneville, with Lon Mass in the back seat directing him to "take a drive out to the lake."

Craig Seeman · January 29th, 2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Ferar

...it looks like were getting a JVC form factor with a Sony codec which at 35 mb/s may be the best of all HDV codecs....

Justin the 35mbps codec is not HDV. While it's MPEG-2 Long GOP, it's 35mbps VBR (XDCAM) not 25mbps CBR which is part of HDV spec as is the 19mbps apparently that JVC has also used.

Not all MPEG-2 Long GOP is HDV.
Also Not all Long GOP is MPEG-2 (AVCHD is H.264/AVC Long GOP for example).
Please don't confuse codecs.

Brian Standing · January 30th, 2009, 08:31 AM

This is a flash memory-only camera, right? No tape drive? If so, I wonder why it's so long? What's on the other side of the camera from the LCD screen, where the tape drive would be if it were an HD250?

Shaun Roemich · January 30th, 2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

If so, I wonder why it's so long?

Electronics in the centre of the camera? Balance? If the 700 doesn't balance on my shoulder like my 200's, I won't be buying. I avoided the EX3 when I purchased SOLELY because of the balance, or lack thereof. The market NEEDS an affordable, shoulder mounted solid state recording HD camera like this IMHO.

Craig Seeman · January 30th, 2009, 09:02 AM

I have picture of the other side of the camera from the JVC Korea site but I'm reluctant to post it without Chris Hurd approval.

I'm willing to post imbed direct from the JVC Korea site so there's no legal question of origin or that JVC Korea is genuinely posting this publicly and can be found on Google USA.

The pic on the other side does raise some interesting questions though.

Glen Vandermolen · January 30th, 2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

The pic on the other side does raise some interesting questions though.

Like what? Every time I go to the Korean site, I get lost in all the swirly graphics.

January 28th, 2009, 03:42 PM	#62
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Ah, the much lamented SX... To be completely fair, the images were quite acceptable when played back long form from tape. Upon edit, though... Interesting though that Stuart had issues with head clogs. My experience with SX was working news for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation here in Canada and we got tremendous reuse out of tapes and untold hours of use without head clogs. If you watched the error correction indicator on the feeder decks (75's?), there was a lot of error correction going on with some tapes... Please don't get me wrong: SX was NOT a production format, IMHO. But for ENG work, it was sure easier to work with than SP in a fast paced news environment. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

January 28th, 2009, 07:53 PM	#64
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	There you go: ask 1000 people a question and you'll get 1001 answers. There certainly is something to be said about the robust nature of professional 1/2" tape... I can't say I've seen much SX in a non-linear environment but it doesn't hold up well to linear editing. The colour seems to be the first to go. One nice thing about SX was the pre-read function that allowed you to do A to A dissolves. Pretty advanced in it's day. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

January 29th, 2009, 04:57 PM	#68
Justin Ferar Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Larkspur, CA Posts: 378	Well I've always said that JVC has the best form factor. Besides 2 HD 200's I also own a Canon A1. I commonly intercut the JVC's and the Canon and I have always noticed that the Canon has a significantly cleaner image (less noise). So I've been wishing for a JVC camera with Canon's codec. Fast forward to today and it looks like were getting a JVC form factor with a Sony codec which at 35 mb/s may be the best of all HDV codecs. Very much looking forward to this camera! __________________ www.justinferar.com www.weddingsonfilm.com

January 30th, 2009, 08:31 AM	#72
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	This is a flash memory-only camera, right? No tape drive? If so, I wonder why it's so long? What's on the other side of the camera from the LCD screen, where the tape drive would be if it were an HD250? __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

January 28th, 2009, 03:16 PM	#61
Stuart Nimmo Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Paris France Posts: 89	Yes, that was about it David. Betacam SX was really a disaster, all sorts of edit problems, (sync and so on). As a format it seemed to be very prone to head clogging too. Then came the The DSR 500 which produced 'muddy' DSR 500 images. I guess I was used to Digi Betacam so there was really no comparison. However, the 500 did tend to fall apart too, sometimes leaving things like plastic switch covers and eye pieces trailing behind. The XLR "box" on the back was in fact part of the chassis. If, as happened, someone managed to stand on an audio cable while the operator was moving forward, instead of pulling the XLR plug off (bad enough), it tended to yank the back off the chassis off, and that was the end of camera. Another thing was their tendency to '500 Alzheimer’s disease', the only cure was to switch the it off and remove all power sources completely for a few minutes and then start from scratch; great fun on a live OB! For those of us who came from BVW 400s they were very badly built, not nearly rugged enough for news work; but at that price I guess they were considered disposable. I think you've listed the real problem David: the sheer multiplicity of formats. In the format wars there have been ‘odd’ deals being done to lure a big name broadcaster into re-equipping with a particular product. I need to be careful about what I say here, but one major French deal springs to mind. The end result has been bucket loads of incompatibility in an industry that simply couldn't afford that mistake again. It's still relentless and yet the obvious truth is that nobody can possibly afford it now. Surely the truth is that if the program(me) is really good it isn't judged by it's format, it's watched. If it's bad, it still isn't judged by the format, that isn't going to save it. People switch away no matter what it was shot on. Most homes wind the chroma up to near bursting point and have no idea what the image shape should actually be anyway.

January 28th, 2009, 04:08 PM	#63
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	We've been using Beta SX in our commercial productions for over 7 years now. In all that time, I've never lost video to a camera (or deck) error. Not once. It has proven to be a robust and dependable format. It has never caused any problems with our NLEs. Not production worthy? We've certainly made our money off of it. That said, we've gone to P2 at work, and I don't ever want to shoot on tape again.

January 28th, 2009, 09:43 PM	#65
Johnny Clark New Boot Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 22	Let's get this thread back to the current century! Any news Craig? It's almost February. You aren't holding anything back are you Tim? You've probably already shot your next project with one of these bad boys.....

January 29th, 2009, 04:34 PM	#66
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Odd that people are saying that about the photo. It's JVC that's displaying it! ::: Welcome to JVC ::: > ????? > ProHD ???? > New GY-HM700 & HM100 Camcorder JVC Korea apparently As you can see there's the 700 photo, the 100 photo beneath that. The Press Release below that in English. Apparently JVC is OK with showing the photo.

January 29th, 2009, 04:43 PM	#67
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Rather than pointing to another (possibly competing) forum I thought it wise to upload the file directly here. You can see in my previous post that the pic is coming from a currently legit JVC site so they aren't concealing it... haven't pulled it, etc. My only guess is they'd prefer people to point to the JVC site itself so I'm qualifying the pic with a post to JVC site rather than an unauthorized location.

January 30th, 2009, 09:02 AM	#74
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I have picture of the other side of the camera from the JVC Korea site but I'm reluctant to post it without Chris Hurd approval. I'm willing to post imbed direct from the JVC Korea site so there's no legal question of origin or that JVC Korea is genuinely posting this publicly and can be found on Google USA. The pic on the other side does raise some interesting questions though.