New GY-HM700 Camcorder

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Using SDHC in the EX cameras have the same features as SxS except: slower transfer time, inability to overcrank to the full extent SxS can on Sony.

No one is saying "what" will be different. I suggest two capabilities. You have suggested a third.

Moreover, I opened two possibilities:

1) Less SDHC functionality -- which you have confirmed is what currently exists on the EX1/EX3.

AND/OR

2) The desire by a shooter to have recordings made on SxS simply because they feed into a well understood XDCAM EX workflow. It may be that even if quality and functionality are equal, some will spend the money to have "XDCAM EX SxS" recordings.

I'm only asking questions that we need answers to because they go directly to the issue of workflows.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

It may be that even if quality and functionality are equal, some will spend the money to have "XDCAM EX SxS" recordings.

As a freelancer in addition to owning and operating my own video production "house", this is an important ability. Rather than trying to explain to clients what I can record to SDHC cards, I can offer them an industry standard format that they understand. Keep in mind that there is an XDCam EX "VTR" (DDR?) that outputs VIDEO, not just a file. For my broadcast clients, this is a field leveler.

[Bo Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

1) SDHC w/o SxS = .mov 19/25/35 flavors:
This option enables native (no transcode) real-time editing with FCP.

Thats all I needed to know. Mayonnaise jar I keep under my bed, prepare to hold part of my pay check for the next few months.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

As a freelancer in addition to owning and operating my own video production "house", this is an important ability. Rather than trying to explain to clients what I can record to SDHC cards, I can offer them an industry standard format that they understand. Keep in mind that there is an XDCam EX "VTR" (DDR?) that outputs VIDEO, not just a file. For my broadcast clients, this is a field leveler.

I agree -- the ability to deliver a format that has wide acceptance ON media that's well understood is certainly worth $1000. No hassles about "HDV" or "ProHD." Just say SxS.

And, no issues of Sony vs JVC either. :)

For other's of us -- there is no need to spend the money because all we want is high-quality footage at the lowest possible cost. In fact, for those of us that have been using other SDHC camcorders we are used to working with "clip-based" timecode.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

And, no issues of Sony vs JVC either. :)

Which brings us back to the "old" days:
When you showed up with a Sony BVW507 dockable head, no one looked to see if your dockable recorder was Sony or Ampex. You said Betacam, they got Betacam, they edited Betacam. Unlike VHS-C: "well, it's VHS tape, but in a smaller case. You'll need an adaptor to play it... oh, and you can only get 40 minutes on it. Did I mention you need an adaptor? Actually, no, I don't have one you can borrow. I actually don't need it for my workflow and I'm not sure where to get one or which brand to suggest".

[Andy Tejral]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

no one looked to see if your dockable recorder was Sony or Ampex.

While I certainly haven't made an exhaustive study, all the Ampex Beta equipment I've seen just had the Sony label pried off and Ampex written in in crayon. Well, maybe not but it was clearly a Sony product.

[Shaun Roemich]

Really? The Ampex stuff I'm used to seeing extended a good 2 inches over top of the body, whereas the Sony branded stuff was nice and sleek, because THAT makes a difference in image quality... <laughs>

I'd be interested to know if you get a DEFINITIVE answer on the Ampex branded stuff...

[Andy Tejral]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

I'd be interested to know if you get a DEFINITIVE answer on the Ampex branded stuff...

Still not definitive but, from wikipedia...
"Ampex, Thomson SA and Philips each sold rebranded OEM versions of some of the Sony VTRs and Camcorders at various times in the 1980s and 1990s. Other than nameplates, these models were identical to the Sony models."

But yes, JVC cameras were largely compatible with Sony decks--though I think they needed an adapter--JVC decks slapped right on without. Same with Ikegami, I believe.

[Simon Denny]

Has anyone had a play with this camera yet?

[Chris Hurd]

Yes. See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1010873-post140.html earlier in this thread.

We'll put up a review shortly.

[Claude Mangold]

Andy is definitely right. It's just re-badged.

We have an Ampex CVR22 standing around, but the operating manual says "Sony BVW 22P"

And our BVW 75P has a manual saying "Ampex CVR75"


Looking forward to the review of the JVC 700 !

[Clint Harmon]

The HM700 looks to be causing quite a stir.

I have not seen anyone on this thread mention anything about importing to Premiere on a windows based NLE. Does anyone have any input on this?

The JVC press release and other forums I have read online refer to using Apple and FCP. One article even started "One must be married to FCP...to use the HM700"

Did JVC alienate us non apple people?

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Brian Tori

Does anyone know what the second file format extension is when using the HM100 or HM700? ...What does "ISO based" mean? On the HM700 page it states that it can record to XDCAM EX compatible .mp4 files only with the optional SxS recorder. What is the extension going to be when shooting to the SDHC cards?

The two extensions available are .MP4 and .MOV. These of course are just containers for the XDCAM EX codec which is the only codec the HM700 records in. You can write XDCAM EX in the .MOV container to SDHC cards on a out-of-the-box HM700. If you want to write .MP4 you will need to add the KA-MR100 SxS module that unlocks the ability to record .MP4 to SDHC or SxS.

Originally Posted by Taylor Brush

Wow. Sorry JVC, but it looks like someone dropped the ball on this one. ONLY native FCP recording without an extra $1500? Would it have really killed you to have added another format, such as MXF? Wouldn't that have opened up the horizons a little instead of limiting them?
What I really don't understand is why the smaller camera has this option, but the larger one does not?

It isn't really native to FCP since you can download the free open-source Perian XDCAM EX codec for Quicktime and play these files on any mac. For Windows Vista or XP you can use XD Decode codec for Quicktime to work with XDCAM EX .MOV files. I still have to test this myself but the EX1/3 camp seems to give this software a thumbs up.
BTW the "MXF" indication on the engineering sample of the HM100 will likely change since the recorded container was still MP4.

Originally Posted by Brian Tori

...what is the extension going to be if we shoot in 25mb or 19mb mode? Is it still .mp4 or something else?

XDCAM EX is used no matter what the bitrate. However the firewire port on the camera will output a HDV stream if you are using 19Mbps for 720p or 25Mbps for 1080i.

Originally Posted by Taylor Brush

Yes PC's can use QuickTime - HOWEVER: Those of us who use Avid know quite well that it cannot import timecode from quicktime files.

xml files are also included for each .MOV clip that contains all of the meta data including timecode. Presumably you can just import these xml files and relink them to the converted media.

Originally Posted by Taylor Brush

The fact that no one from JVC has chimed in yet shows me that it looks like our assumptions are right: if you want to record anything with the Sony codec, you have to buy the Sony hardware. That doesn't do me any good and at that point I'd rather buy the Sony EX Camera, it looks cheaper at that point, plus you can use the SD workaround and shoot just as cheaply.

XDCAM EX aside, Sony's EX series doesn't really have any ergonomic similarities to the HM700 or the lens selection, but they do use 1/2" chips instead of 1/3". There are pros and cons to everything. JVC representatives will chime in when Chris or I send an email request for clarification but they don't sit around all day watching our forum!

Originally Posted by David Parks

...mxf is used by Avid, Adobe Premiere, After Effects, Canopus Edius and others as the file format for editing the Sony MPEG 2 codecs, among other codecs. So it isn't just Avid that they're possibly leaving out.

JVC licensed XDCAM EX from Sony which uses the MP4 container. XDCAM HD uses MXF. I'm sure there is an easy way to move from one container to another, I just don't know specifically. Avid MC3 does support XDCAM EX as does Premiere Pro CS4.

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

The Sony EX cameras write an .mp4 file inside a proprietary folder structure. It's an mpeg2 codec, that writes to an mp4 container. Sony Vegas will NOT import that .mp4 file and it needs a rewrap to MXF. Thus it appears to me that NONE of these NLEs understand the XDCamEX codec and ALL need a rewrap.
...ProRes QT files apparently will drop into anything, though it is unknown to me if it will drop in with timecode in NLEs other than Avid.
The whole thing is a mess.

It certainly is confusing but the benefit of Sony's success with the EX series cameras is that it is in the NLE manufacturers' best interest to support XDCAM EX.

Originally Posted by Harry Pallenberg

Anyone know how many minutes a 32GB card will hold of the highest setting?

It should be around 2 hours on a 32GB SDHC card using 35Mbps. It is a Variable Bit Rate codec so that time may extend if the material is "simple."

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

However, according to Tim Dashwoods first post here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/jvc-pro-h...camcorder.html
The GY-HM100 will record 19, 25 and 35Mbps to SDHC cards.
This also includes the ProHD formats and 1440X1080 and 1920x1080 interlaced formats.
Wouldn't it be reasonable to think the HM700 would record these all to SDHC, even though the SXS recorder may add additional options?

It would be reasonable to think that because there are no technical limitations. It seems to me that this is simply a condition of JVC's XDCAM EX licensing agreement with Sony (who also just happen to manufacture and sell SxS media.)

Originally Posted by David Parks

I do find it interesting that the HM100 can record to SDHC in all flavors without the SXS. It makes me wonder if Sony is twisting JVC's arm to sell SXS.

Occam's Razor at work! That would seem to be the most logical explanation.

Originally Posted by David Parks

But this brochure is even more confusing. If you look at the boxed table on page 3 under 35 Mbits, there is an asterik by 1440x1080 60i and 50i that references the note ".mov only"
Which totally contradicts the specifications page that listed 1920x1080i as .mov only and no reference by 1440x1080.
So it is a clear as mud...

I think you've discovered a typo in the spec page. The 1440x1080 spec is there to provide backwards compatibility with HDV (via firewire.) I don't think it is officially part of the XDCAM EX spec so that is why it is Quicktime only.

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

EX1 does 16GB per hour (@ 35Mbps.)

And so will the HM100/700.

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

Thanks, Chris, for clearing that up. So, unless we pony up for the SxS adapter, we're stuck with ProRes QuickTime files.

Not ProRes. XDCAM EX codec is used whether the SxS adapter is attached or not.

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

...It would seem then that the JVC camera offers what the Sony cameras do, _plus_ the Quicktime wrapper option.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Brian Ladue

Information has been very slow on this camera, I'd be very interested to see some footage or even some stills! ...Tim, didn't you spend some time with the camera? Did you post some kind of review of the camera? The Panasonic camp instantly flooded the boards at the other forum with tonnes of info, footage, stills, etc.. The JVC camp seems pretty laid back about the new camera details. Where's the goods!?
...I've seen the specs and photos of the camera already, what I'm referring to is hands on details...I'd like to hear some honest impressions of the camera.

We're not laid back about our press coverage. In fact I can guarantee no other publication will have as in-depth coverage of the HM700 as we will or asks the questions we do. Unfortunately analyzing footage, making sense of our many photos of the internal menus, testing the formats across platforms, waiting for technical confirmation from JVC and writing an in-depth review spanning 5 pages (without the photos) takes a few days. Chris is in the process of formatting my article for the website, inserting movie files and pics and uploading. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

Originally Posted by Brian Ladue

On another note does anyone know if JVC uses the same technique with the CCDs as they did before when the cameras (HD100s) started suffering from the split screen effect? And does anyone know what the native sensors size is? are they 960X540? 1280X720? I know they mentioned that H/V offset is used... so just wondering!?

I've been told that the CCDs are once again 1280x720 but the red channel is offset horizontally and the blue channel is offset vertically allowing more than 900 TV lines of resolution (full 1080P.) We'll have source footage available shortly.

Originally Posted by John Markert

I'm wondering if either the 100 or 700 will output downconverted SD. I still have clients that want DVCAM or DV, and I'd really like to feed it to a deck from the camcorder instead of trying to encode DV in an NLE. My little Canon HV20 will output to DV from HDV, which is very convenient at times.

The HM700 will downconvert to DV NTSC or PAL via firewire (something the JVC HDXXX cameras are not capable of doing.)

Originally Posted by John Markert

Still hoping for 1/2" CCD's and AVC Intra from JVC.

Keep hoping. 1/3" is well established with JVC and Mpeg2 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Harry Pallenberg

Steve says:
"From working with camcorders that write to SDHC cards I've found:
a) Timecode resets to zero for each clip."
Say it aint so!!!!!!!! Anyone?

The HM700 (and HM100) have full control over the TC generator. You can preset the TC and record in FREE RUN, REC RUN or REGEN just like a tape based system. The other neat thing about the HM700 is that you can record in Continuous Clip mode which will append each new clip to the last giving you one big clip at the end of the day (split in 4GB chunks for Fat32.)

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Clint Harmon

The HM700 looks to be causing quite a stir.

I have not seen anyone on this thread mention anything about importing to Premiere on a windows based NLE. Does anyone have any input on this?

The JVC press release and other forums I have read online refer to using Apple and FCP. One article even started "One must be married to FCP...to use the HM700"

Did JVC alienate us non apple people?

Not at all. That is simply confusion based on JVC's press materials that tend to "beat around the bush" with regards to the format.
It's been discussed quite a bit already in this thread but here are the basics again (just so everyone gets it.)

The codec used with the HM700 is XDCAM EX at bit rates up to 35Mbps.
The wrapper/container used on a new "out-of-the-box" HM700 is Quicktime .MOV and it can be written to SDHC cards.
The addition of the KA-MR100 SxS module will allow the ability to write XDCAM EX to SxS cards in the MP4 container, but will also unlock the ability to write XDCAM EX to SDHC cards in the MP4 container.

Premiere Pro CS4 natively supports XDCAM EX MP4 files. I downloaded the trial and imported them easily. It seems that XD Decode will allow you to import XDCAM EX .MOV files on a PC but I am in the process of testing this.

On the Mac you don't even really need FCP installed if you download and install the open-source XDCAM EX codec. This even works with Sony's XDCAM Transfer software.

[Joe Carney]

is the HD SDI output 10bit 4:2:2 or still 8bit?