New GY-HM700 Camcorder

Brian Ladue · February 12th, 2009, 09:56 PM

Information has been very slow on this camera, I'd be very interested to see some footage or even some stills! Does the camera perform better than the 200/250s? Resolution wise? Low light performance? Tim, didn't you spend some time with the camera? Did you post some kind of review of the camera? The Panasonic camp instantly flooded the boards at the other forum with tonnes of info, footage, stills, etc.. The JVC camp seems pretty laid back about the new camera details. Where's the goods!?

Craig Seeman · February 12th, 2009, 10:01 PM

I posted the links below in the Sony XDCAM EX forum (after all this is an XDCAM EX camera even if it's not by Sony). I'm posting here since people might not have looked at the thread there.

JVC Professional Technical Description page

JVC Professional Attributes page

Brian Ladue · February 12th, 2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I posted the links below in the Sony XDCAM EX forum (after all this is an XDCAM EX camera even if it's not by Sony). I'm posting here since people might not have looked at the thread there.

JVC Professional Technical Description page

JVC Professional Attributes page

I've seen the specs and photos of the camera already, what I'm referring to is hands on details...I'd like to hear some honest impressions of the camera. Tim said a few days ago that he was going to spend some time with the new cam. So, I'm wondering if he was able to record anything? if he could post some footage? or a still frame from some footage or something...

On another note does anyone know if JVC uses the same technique with the CCDs as they did before when the cameras (HD100s) started suffering from the split screen effect? And does anyone know what the native sensors size is? are they 960X540? 1280X720? I know they mentioned that H/V offset is used... so just wondering!?

Tim Dashwood · February 12th, 2009, 11:15 PM

I'm working on a review right now and I do have answers to most of the common questions. The phone's been ringing off the hook since I got back from NYC 24 hours ago so it is taking a bit of time. It should be uploaded by late tomorrow afternoon.
I also have footage I shot in most of the formats.

We actually have two HM700 threads going here so you may have missed some of the information in the other one. I think I'll merge them together into an über-thread.

Chris Hurd · February 12th, 2009, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ladue

Information has been very slow on this camera... Tim, didn't you spend some time with the camera? Did you post some kind of review of the camera?

Look, Brian, honestly I'm sorry that this isn't happening fast enough for you, but please realize that Tim just got his hands on it only yesterday, and there was a trip back home from New York since then. He's working up a written review as well as uploading some video clips, which I'll publish just as soon as they're ready. Tim isn't getting paid for this (although he should be), so let's all please respect how generous he's being with his time here.

To their credit, JVC was very patient and most accommodating for us, but it's their only sample, so our actual hands-on time was understandably quite limited. There's no question that Panasonic sets the standard by developing a close relationship and providing tremendous advance support and copious resources for their preferred online venue; no other manufacturer matches them in that regard. They're doing it right.

Meanwhile we're doing all we can with what we're given. If the pace is too slow for you then I'm sorry but you're on the wrong site. Honestly we will put out as much as we can, as fast as we're able. And I'm offering a full refund if the service isn't satisfying. Hope this helps,

Chris Hurd · February 12th, 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

We actually have two HM700 threads going here... I think I'll merge them together into an über-thread.

You know Tim, those can quickly become hard to follow. I think it's time for a new forum, with newer, more manageable discussions about specific HM700 topics...?

Brian Ladue · February 12th, 2009, 11:41 PM

Hey guys,

Sorry about sounding so rushy, I'm just a little anxious to see some details...and I didn't hear too much...I do appreciate the effort that goes into these things. My apologies, I look forward to your review.

Steve Mullen · February 13th, 2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks

SDHC w/o SXS = .mov 19/25/35 flavors.
SDHC + SXS = .mov & .mp4 19/25/35 flavors.

Still a disappointment.

David, I'm not sure why the disappointment.

1) SDHC w/o SxS = .mov 19/25/35 flavors:

This option enables native (no transcode) real-time editing with FCP.

However, this option will likely not be limited to FCP. For the last several years I've been converting 30Mbps MPEG-2 FullHD from the JVC HD7 to MPEG-2 .mov files and they can be imported into other Apple applications and be edited in real-time. Some, if not most Windows, applications can import these files and edit them natively. Others may force a transcode to DNXHD.

I don't see any reason to be disappointed by these capabilities.

There are, however, open issues. Although it's EZ to talk about 25Mbps and 35Mbps files on SDHC cards that are "compatible" with XDCAM EX -- it may be an error to assume these cards duplicate the full functionality of "XDCAM EX on SxS" cards.

From working with camcorders that write to SDHC cards I've found:

a) Timecode resets to zero for each clip.

b) Files are limited to 4GB because these cards use FAT32. (That's why the next gen cards will use ExFAT.) Often camcorder firmware limits a single shot to a single file. Or, if their firmware does open new files as needed, the camcorder can't write them in a way that prevents data loss at the switch point. Here's a comment on the problem created by another camcorder, "Open the two files and you will notice 418 samples of audio missing just prior to the splice point and exactly two dropped frames just after the splice point."

The fact with the HM- series, can auto-cross card boundaries is a positive sign these camcorders will record information from long shots correctly.

Of course, it's also necessary that your NLE software can stitch long shot files together. Often the "next" file duplicates some of the frames in the "previous" file. Ideally, during import, your NLE SHOULD use timecode to create seamless video files. This is particularly important (and difficult) with long GOP formats.

2) SxS = .mp4 19/25/35 flavors:

This path gives you everything that XDCAM EX provides. Once you install the needed SxS driver, your computer can read SxS cards.

a) The Sony Browser can read files and will correctly stitch broken files together so they can be exported to ProRes 422 or DNXHD.

b) If your NLE supports XDCAM EX (.mp4) -- not XDCAM HD (.mxf) -- then you'll be able to skip using the sony Browser. However, when it comes to broken files, you'll need to confirm how your NLE handles these files. You also need to confirm if your NLE can natively edit these files. (If not, they will be auto-transcoded during import.)

And, if it can edit natively, can it do so in real-time?

3) SxS + SDHC = .mov 19/25/35 flavors on SDHC:

Frankly, I thought the SxS Media Recorder included a Sony encoder chip to force what was written to SxS cards to "be" XDCAM EX. Sony has always claimed its hardware encoder is far better than other MPEG-2 encoders. So it's possible previous posts are wrong and XDCAM EX can only be written to SxS. With the box attached, the SDHC cards are still written to from the JVC encoder.

>> Note the difference between an MPEG-2 file encoded by a JVC encoder that can be decoded by an XCAM EX decoder and a file encoded by a Sony XDCAM EX encoder. <<

It's also possible JVC has licensed the Sony encoder firmware that is unlocked by the SxS box. (The dongle concept.) Lastly, it's possible the box really does include a Sony encoder that feeds both set of slots.

However, I really would be surprised if Sony allowed anything fully equal to "XDCAM EX on SxS" to work with SDHC cards. This is why I expect there are SDHC limitations. (Were Sony to do so, it would leave itself open to why Sony doesn't use SDHC cards.)

David Parks · February 13th, 2009, 08:41 AM

Steve,

All great points. I'm disappointed because I can't afford the camera right now and the SXS extra cost for both the recorder and media is a bit disappointing. With cards and batteries it will take the price possibly over $10k.

I was under the early impresssion, based on the specs of the HM 100 that the HM 700 would be able to record ISO based media (.mp4) as JVC called it to regular SDHC cards. And I'm pretty much an Avid guy at heart.

So, I'm sure it will be a great camera, and I'm not saying it is overpriced, it is I'm just underbudgeted for now.

I will say that I'm now going to look at the Panasonic HPX 300 now while we are in the $10k range anyway. Avid already edits AVC Intra 100. After all, to me $10k is not just buying a camera, it is now a big investment and I need the best camera for the money.

Maybe in the fall, Cheeers.

John Markert · February 13th, 2009, 10:23 AM

I'm wondering if either the 100 or 700 will output downconverted SD. I still have clients that want DVCAM or DV, and I'd really like to feed it to a deck from the camcorder instead of trying to encode DV in an NLE. My little Canon HV20 will output to DV from HDV, which is very convenient at times.

Still hoping for 1/2" CCD's and AVC Intra from JVC.

Harry Pallenberg · February 13th, 2009, 11:22 AM

Steve says:

"From working with camcorders that write to SDHC cards I've found:

a) Timecode resets to zero for each clip."

Say it aint so!!!!!!!! Anyone?

Matt San · February 13th, 2009, 12:20 PM

No reason it should be - its hardly an issue to implement if manufactures so desire. On my ex1 I can have options for how TC is recorded

I know its not HDSC before u all jump on my back.

Steven Lyons · February 13th, 2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Adair

Steven, this really belongs in it's own thread. It's been discussed before, but I too have struggled with this. It's mpg2 artifacts that turn up when settings aren't optimized. Mpg2 itself tends to throw out information too soon in these areas, and it gets even uglier if you are then recompressing for dvd.

To get back on point, this is one reason to get very excited about the move to 35mps in the new generation cams. Seat of the pants tells me we won't be facing the bit starvation experienced at 720 60p with the 200 series, and 1080 30p will also be handled with aplomb.

The proof of the pudding will of course be in real life, and I hope to have the chance in the near future. Let me know if there are any specific things you'd like checked if/when I have this brief pre-release opportunity.

The "trade-in" was wild fantasy speculation, without any basis. Please let it die a natural death.

Thanks Sean,
glad I wasn't alone about noise levels and thanks for explanation, here in Australia, everyone thought I was over reacting, but previously to the 251 I had the 101 and it was virtually noiseless (I must have gotton a freak).

Anyway, I would love to hear about the sensitivity of the hm700 and of course, hopefully the lack of noise and mpeg2 artifacting.
This is a major reason I haven't taken my 251 too seriously and was really waiting for a scarlet..but if it is a different ball game with hm700 and 35mbs I am willing to take another look.
I have been looking very closely at convergent design and their flash xdr and more specifically the upcoming nano, this will have both hdmi input and output, plus hdsdi which will maintain a 4.2.2 signal at 50meg and 100meg, that should get rid of any mpeg2 artifacting.
Also convergent design have released some test files that I sent to matrox and they trialed them in cs4 with their latest axio le drivers and they worked fine.
Convergent design will also be implementing time lapse in the future units.
Sooo... this maybe a better option existing gyhd251e with nano, because I am assuming
the hm700 will still be recording in 4.2.0 color space.

Steve Mullen · February 13th, 2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt San

No reason it should be - its hardly an issue to implement if manufactures so desire. On my ex1 I can have options for how TC is recorded.

I suspect you are correct there's "no technical reason" why not -- as Sony has done it with their HVR-MRC1K CF recorder.

However, your EX1 uses SxS cards. So it's a marketing question of HOW to convince folks to spend the extra money for the SxS recorder.

If the identical QUALITY video is available without spending $1000 to $1500 -- what is the motivation to spend the extra money?

1) The ability to "have" XDCAM EX on SxS cards -- even though they cost far more?

2) Less "functionality" of the SDHC cards?

I'm not assuming anything is "missing" when using SDHC! I'm only cautioning that those who haven't used SDHC-based camcorders shouldn't ASSUME they work like solid-state tape. They can, but they don't.

Craig Seeman · February 13th, 2009, 07:20 PM

Steve Mullen et al,

SxS uses FAT32. There are no dropped frames or missing audio as spanned and split clips are joined. Using SDHC in the EX cameras have the same features as SxS except: slower transfer time, inability to overcrank to the full extent SxS can on Sony. No issues at all with time code reseting. Keep in mind JVC is a SONY partner as per IBC and I suspect JVC has implemented similar features.

Sony XDCAM Clip Transfer joins files for Sony EX. JVC records MOV natively.
It remains to be seen if overcrank works better on JVC SDHC cards. It seems the cards are certainly fast enough but on Sony EX they've "bottlenecked" the cards write speed. There are different methods of writing to SDHC and Sony may have chosen a protocol that limits the speed. It remains to be seen how JVC handles this.

BTW Sony is accessing the SDHC through an Express Card USB adaptor rather than PCIe used in SxS cards so JVC may handle this differently but none of this results in time code reset, dropped frames or lost audio joining clips. If anything JVC may even improve on this if they're using a protocol that avoids the "bottleneck."

February 12th, 2009, 11:15 PM	#154
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	I'm working on a review right now and I do have answers to most of the common questions. The phone's been ringing off the hook since I got back from NYC 24 hours ago so it is taking a bit of time. It should be uploaded by late tomorrow afternoon. I also have footage I shot in most of the formats. We actually have two HM700 threads going here so you may have missed some of the information in the other one. I think I'll merge them together into an über-thread. __________________ Tim Dashwood

February 13th, 2009, 08:41 AM	#159
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Steve, All great points. I'm disappointed because I can't afford the camera right now and the SXS extra cost for both the recorder and media is a bit disappointing. With cards and batteries it will take the price possibly over $10k. I was under the early impresssion, based on the specs of the HM 100 that the HM 700 would be able to record ISO based media (.mp4) as JVC called it to regular SDHC cards. And I'm pretty much an Avid guy at heart. So, I'm sure it will be a great camera, and I'm not saying it is overpriced, it is I'm just underbudgeted for now. I will say that I'm now going to look at the Panasonic HPX 300 now while we are in the $10k range anyway. Avid already edits AVC Intra 100. After all, to me $10k is not just buying a camera, it is now a big investment and I need the best camera for the money. Maybe in the fall, Cheeers. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

February 13th, 2009, 10:23 AM	#160
John Markert Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Belle Mead NJ Posts: 50	SD lost in the shuffle? I'm wondering if either the 100 or 700 will output downconverted SD. I still have clients that want DVCAM or DV, and I'd really like to feed it to a deck from the camcorder instead of trying to encode DV in an NLE. My little Canon HV20 will output to DV from HDV, which is very convenient at times. Still hoping for 1/2" CCD's and AVC Intra from JVC.

February 13th, 2009, 11:22 AM	#161
Harry Pallenberg Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 122	Tim / Chris - Time code resets to zero??? Steve says: "From working with camcorders that write to SDHC cards I've found: a) Timecode resets to zero for each clip." Say it aint so!!!!!!!! Anyone?

February 12th, 2009, 09:56 PM	#151
Brian Ladue Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 149	Information has been very slow on this camera, I'd be very interested to see some footage or even some stills! Does the camera perform better than the 200/250s? Resolution wise? Low light performance? Tim, didn't you spend some time with the camera? Did you post some kind of review of the camera? The Panasonic camp instantly flooded the boards at the other forum with tonnes of info, footage, stills, etc.. The JVC camp seems pretty laid back about the new camera details. Where's the goods!?

February 12th, 2009, 10:01 PM	#152
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I posted the links below in the Sony XDCAM EX forum (after all this is an XDCAM EX camera even if it's not by Sony). I'm posting here since people might not have looked at the thread there. JVC Professional Technical Description page JVC Professional Attributes page

February 12th, 2009, 11:41 PM	#157
Brian Ladue Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 149	Hey guys, Sorry about sounding so rushy, I'm just a little anxious to see some details...and I didn't hear too much...I do appreciate the effort that goes into these things. My apologies, I look forward to your review.

February 13th, 2009, 12:20 PM	#162
Matt San Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wales UK Posts: 121	No reason it should be - its hardly an issue to implement if manufactures so desire. On my ex1 I can have options for how TC is recorded I know its not HDSC before u all jump on my back.

February 13th, 2009, 07:20 PM	#165
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Steve Mullen et al, SxS uses FAT32. There are no dropped frames or missing audio as spanned and split clips are joined. Using SDHC in the EX cameras have the same features as SxS except: slower transfer time, inability to overcrank to the full extent SxS can on Sony. No issues at all with time code reseting. Keep in mind JVC is a SONY partner as per IBC and I suspect JVC has implemented similar features. Sony XDCAM Clip Transfer joins files for Sony EX. JVC records MOV natively. It remains to be seen if overcrank works better on JVC SDHC cards. It seems the cards are certainly fast enough but on Sony EX they've "bottlenecked" the cards write speed. There are different methods of writing to SDHC and Sony may have chosen a protocol that limits the speed. It remains to be seen how JVC handles this. BTW Sony is accessing the SDHC through an Express Card USB adaptor rather than PCIe used in SxS cards so JVC may handle this differently but none of this results in time code reset, dropped frames or lost audio joining clips. If anything JVC may even improve on this if they're using a protocol that avoids the "bottleneck."