Door #1, door #2 or door #3?

[Enzo Giobbé]

This past week I was shooting the premiere of "Surrogates" for the Syfy Channel, and on my way there I borrowed a demo GY HM100 to test in a real world "run & gun" situation.

I just put up the results from that event for the users of DVInfo Net.

I used three cams total, one of my JVC 200B's (they did not have a 700 I could borrow, and I had already sold both of my 700's, so my 200B had to do), a GY HM100, and another cam (see the Web page for the full disclosure, but no fair peeking first!).

One thing is for sure, the GY HM100 is not very hand hold friendly!

The results (Flash HD videos) are here: JVC

[Justin Ferar]

Very interesting Enzo,

I did the test and found the 1st two pretty much the same. C cam definitely registered as "harsh" in my brain but that's because I'm in the biz and was looking for differences.

When I saw the answers I was surprised! Good stuff.

Off topic- looks like you and both have had a lot of JVC gear!

[Eric Deyerler]

I see your three videos, all with visible noise, can it be that my HM700 looks better with
less noise.

Camera A - HD200
Camera B - HM100
Camera C - another hand-held cam - but not so sharp - like a cheap customer cam

[Justin Ferar]

The noise is due to the web compression- is that what you are referring too?

[Justin Ferar]

Eric,

You can see the answer by clicking "are" in the text. Easy to miss if you don't roll over it.

[Eric Deyerler]

- It can be that the noise is the compression (like MPG2-noise)

- ok I see it - I've thought it's a little test for the dvinfo.net-users.

- I think you borowed the HM100 and not the GY-HD100.

[Enzo Giobbé]

Yes, the noise is from the Flash compression.

All three clips are camera original direct to Flash processing (no post tweaks). I did not even import them into an editing program. The trims were made in the Adobe Flash program itself.

On my 65" LCD calibrated monitor, the Cam A clip has no noise. The Cam B clip has some mosquito noise in the background blacks. Also, it does not render tone graduations as well as Cam A, and is not quite as sharp. Cam C looked the best to my wife (as such cams usually do to non-pros :). It has lots of pop and nice vibrant colors. The Cam C footage could easily be fixed in post and go to broadcast. Cams A and B could go right to broadcast as is (if so needed).

And, I fixed both the camera model names ("HM", not "HD"), and made the hotlinks a different color when they are rolled over. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Yes, I do have a lot of JVC cams. I have been a big JVC booster since the ground breaking GY HD100 first appeared and have been responsible for thousands upon thousands of those cams being sold (to the broadcast nets mostly).

DVInfo Net has (in my opinion) also been largely responsible for the success of the Pro HD line of cameras. If it wasn't for this board, and the many, many posters who shared their experiences, scene and picture files, great tips and caveats about the Pro HD cameras. I doubt that JVC would have seen the success (and respect) they enjoy today.

But, it's now five years later, and I am still waiting for that "new" cutting edge JVC camera that should have shipped by now.

"Yes, but it writes to SDHC" can only get JVC so far. It's way past time for JVC to take the lead again. I know there is something else coming down the line, but it may be a case of too little, too late (the RED Scarlet is getting closer and closer to being a production reality), and that would truly be a shame, as JVC does know how to produce an excellent professional HD cam.

The HM100 certainly isn't it, and the HM700A is close, but still not quite there yet.

Oops, sorry, end of editorial rant.

[Joe Carney]

It would be cool if JVC could be the first to offer an affordable 3x2/3" chip camera, even if it's CMOS. Just dreaming.....

[Enzo Giobbé]

Originally Posted by Joe Carney

It would be cool if JVC could be the first to offer an affordable 3x2/3" chip camera, even if it's CMOS. Just dreaming.....

Joe, JVC was actually working on a bigger 3 chip HD camera when the success of the original HD100 series put that on the back burner, and finally, that project was discarded. Now, they are working on something else (as all the big camera manufacturers are wont to do).

Problem is, that by the time the new cam actually sees the light of production, RED will have released the RED Scarlet 2/3" Mysterium-X (8x fixed lens) camera at a price point of about $4K.

When that happens, RED will (for all practical purposes, and in my opinion), own the under $10K digital cam market. If you absolutely need interchangeable lenses, the RED Scarlet 2/3" Cinema should be even cheaper (with no lens).

Yes, RED is that good. When I finally had a chance to acquire a used RED One to use on my Steadicam Pro II rig, I sold the Sony 950 CineAlta I was using immediately after my first gig using the RED.

It appears that JVC, Sony, Panasonic, etc. are all asleep at the wheel.

[Alex Humphrey]

Enzo, you make a valid point about the Red/Scarlet. Of the thre big companies, I only see JVC being the one that would be willing to make something like the Red/Scarlet at that price range. Sony and Panasonic have too much invested in the $40k-90k cameras to do something like the Red. Also I haven't looked but I hear good things about Arri's digital camera as well as Panaflex cameras, but those are pretty expensive. But we are reaching a time when the smaller companies (Such as Red) can leap frog the big names and pull it off.

[Justin Ferar]

Scarlet used to have an expected release date of summer 09. There was a previous release date before that too- until the 5d came out and they went back to the drawing board. Finally they just got rid of the expected release date from the site. Bummer. I just hope it comes out sooner than later because I've been putting off my 5d purchase since it came out.

Just ranting.

[Enzo Giobbé]

Originally Posted by Alex Humphrey

Enzo, you make a valid point about the Red/Scarlet. Of the thre big companies, I only see JVC being the one that would be willing to make something like the Red/Scarlet at that price range. Sony and Panasonic have too much invested in the $40k-90k cameras to do something like the Red. Also I haven't looked but I hear good things about Arri's digital camera as well as Panaflex cameras, but those are pretty expensive. But we are reaching a time when the smaller companies (Such as Red) can leap frog the big names and pull it off.

Alex, yes you are right. JVC could, but they won't.

JVC has just about conceded that it's too late in the game now to develop a valid competitor to the RED Scarlet and get it into production in time.

I would love to see JVC come out with a Red Scarlet spec cam using the same shoulder cam ergonomics they use in the HD100 to HM700 series. The ergonomics of the series is the only thing that keeps me using (and recommending) the JVC line for some of the work I do.

But, I would rather that RED developed a Scarlet / RED One add-on that duplicates the JVC shoulder rest design (their "U-bolt" shoulder rest add-on is a bit clumsy :)

Sony (which supplies the guts of the Panavision Genesis), has pretty much decided to go after the broadcast market, and I don't have any idea what Panasonic is up to.

The Genesis is not for sale, and rents (with a full compliment of accessories and lenses), for about $10K or more a week. For whatever reason, Panavision just purchased 15 more cameras from Sony (spending $35M), and the last time I checked, were also working on their own digi cam design. Panavision is not doing too well these day, all due the RED One.

The Arri D-21 is very, very pricey, but the rental is fairly cheap these days. The local rental houses tell me that the only time the Arri goes out is when the RED is not available.

See this thread for some of the comparisons between the cams you mentioned: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-h...700-100-a.html

[Colin Rowe]

Deleted, wrong thread

[Robert Rogoz]

Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé

Problem is, that by the time the new cam actually sees the light of production, RED will have released the RED Scarlet 2/3" Mysterium-X (8x fixed lens) camera at a price point of about $4K.

When that happens, RED will (for all practical purposes, and in my opinion), own the under $10K digital cam market. If you absolutely need interchangeable lenses, the RED Scarlet 2/3" Cinema should be even cheaper (with no lens).

Yes, RED is that good. When I finally had a chance to acquire a used RED One to use on my Steadicam Pro II rig, I sold the Sony 950 CineAlta I was using immediately after my first gig using the RED.

I think for under 10K Sony EX1 or EX3 are going to be hard to beat, even by RED. Brand new unit retails for $6100 at B&H- as the matter of fact these cams are so durable and so good they usually go for about 5K used. Maybe the ergonomics of the camera aren't ideal, but they are way more portable then HM700 (or any other shoulder mount), they produce outstanding picture and the editing workflow is well established. I don't know how editing with Redcode42 will be done in FCP, but for me it would be a major concern.

[Enzo Giobbé]

Originally Posted by Robert Rogoz

I think for under 10K Sony EX1 or EX3 are going to be hard to beat, even by RED. Brand new unit retails for $6100 at B&H- as the matter of fact these cams are so durable and so good they usually go for about 5K used. Maybe the ergonomics of the camera aren't ideal, but they are way more portable then HM700 (or any other shoulder mount), they produce outstanding picture and the editing workflow is well established. I don't know how editing with Redcode42 will be done in FCP, but for me it would be a major concern.

Robert, yes, I was very impressed by the EX3, but for what I need, the ergonomics are indeed terrible.

I need a good shoulder cam for the network outlets I shoot for, and one that is light, easy to transport and handle, and will write to a removable a hard drive (with some type of backup for archiving purposes).

The JVC HD200B fits those requirements perfectly. It's shoulder cam ergonomics are exactly what's most important to me, plus with its quick release plate, I can take it from shoulder to tripod in a few seconds if need be. I could not use a EX cam in those type of shooting situations (and I have strong arms).

For my Steadicam, Movie, and Net TV work, I use the RED One, For promos / tests, and minuscule budget movies, I use a dedicated HD200B specially modified just for digital cinematography.

REDCode loves FCP. The RED company uses FCP. It takes a high end Mac to transcode the footage in a reasonable amount of time, but the results are stunning.