HM100 and smaller cameras?

Robert M Wright · October 6th, 2009, 08:54 AM

Doesn't Sanyo make PAL versions of their little cameras?

You could shoot 1080i50 (with any of a number of small consumer camcorders) and deinterlace (and downsize) to 720p50 using something like YADIF.

Keith Moreau · October 6th, 2009, 04:12 PM

I'd recommend AVCHD camcorders like the Canon HFS100 which is a wonderful camcorder, has great image quality, and great progressive modes like 30P, EXCEPT the transcoding involved to actually edit the media. The transcoding takes a bit of time and the resulting file sizes are much larger than the original AVCHD, like 2x (Prores Proxy) to 3x (Prores LT) to 5x (Prores 422).

If you have FCS 3 using FCP 7, you have the option of transcoding them to 'Prores LT' or Prores Proxy, which allows you to edit the files with pretty good quality and speed.

Just remember the transcoding on a Macbook Pro will take some time, and also you might run out of storage and the internal drives of these laptops are not that fast. External FW800 drives are usually a lot faster.

John McDonald · October 6th, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

Doesn't Sanyo make PAL versions of their little cameras?

You could shoot 1080i50 (with any of a number of small consumer camcorders) and deinterlace (and downsize) to 720p50 using something like YADIF.

No, for some amazing reason Sanyo don't make PAL versions it seems:
VPC-FH1EBK - SANYO EMEA
I have emailed to ask.

Thanks for the tip on YADIF - new to me - I assume this would be quite time consuming for 10 hours of video for example?

Robert M Wright · October 6th, 2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McDonald

Thanks for the tip on YADIF - new to me - I assume this would be quite time consuming for 10 hours of video for example?

How long it would take to convert 10 hours of 1080i50 to 720p50, with YADIF, would depend on a number of factors, including CPU speed, resizing algorithm, the source codec, and the codec used for encoding the result. YADIF is a deinterlace filter orginally written for MPlayer (if I recall correctly) and has been ported for use as a filter with AviSynth. AviSynth is written for Windows.

I've experimented with converting 1080i60 to 720p60 using YADIF/AviSynth, a couple times, and was quite favorably impressed with the results, but I don't know how practical it might be for you. Do you have a PC available to you?

John McDonald · October 7th, 2009, 02:24 AM

Thanks Robert,

No PC I'm afraid, I'm living in a Land Rover about to drive across Africa so looking to avoid any extra equipment (or extensive encoding/compression etc).

John McDonald · October 10th, 2009, 06:57 AM

I think I give up. There isn't any easy answer. Having to convert footage to work with the footage from the HM100 takes away from the advantage that the HM100 offers (easy to get footage into fcp and start editing).

I'm deciding if I can justify the expense of another HM100 or will just set off with the one camera.

Bob Richardson · October 10th, 2009, 12:08 PM

Re: Conversion -- Did you try the Canon clips I provided? You should be able to just use Log & Transfer to bring them directly into Final Cut. The import process on most macs I've tried is faster than real-time. Not rapid and direct like the HM-100, but still a supported solution within FC and faster than tape-based. No third-party utilities required.

John McDonald · October 10th, 2009, 02:12 PM

Thanks Bob, I did and that was very kind of you to do them for a complete stranger!

They came into FCP very easily as you say, but the question then becomes how do I get my HM100 footage (1280 720 50p) and the Canon footage (or anything else) to coexist on the same timeline for editing?

As my project is likely to last 2 years, it will likely contain a few hundred hours of footage at least, which if it is different formats will mean some serious conversion time - and living in a vehicle I only have about 3 hours of Macbook Pro run time each day, if I can manage that at all (I'm in Africa, it's hot and sweaty sitting inside a vehicle at night, lots of mosi's etc etc ;-).

So I don't see any easy answer for my situation except for a 2nd HM100, but I need a smaller camera etc.

Though I admit I haven't made films for a few years, back when MiniDV was so easy format wise. So FCP mixed format timeline and ProRes etc etc is all a mystery to me, so maybe I am missing a simple trick?

Another though: Dropping the 50p side of things would make life simpler with converting footage - at least then in 25p or whatever the footage would be the same size and frame rate, just in a different codec to start with?

Bob Richardson · October 12th, 2009, 08:13 AM

<em>Another though: Dropping the 50p side of things would make life simpler with converting footage - at least then in 25p or whatever the footage would be the same size and frame rate, just in a different codec to start with?</em>

I don't know for sure, so someone would have to test this, but I believe that all AVCHD (Canon) footage brought in by Log & Transfer is going to require rendering no matter what format of timeline you drop it on.

However, the renderer is going to be doing the most work decoding the individual AVCHD frames... duplicating those frames to match a faster timeline shouldn't take any significant additional time, so a 25p AVCHD stream shouldn't take (much) more time to place on a 50p timeline than it would on a 25p timeline.

As I'm still stuck using Final Cut Express HD, everything I do has to be rendered after import on an Apple Intermediate Codec timeline, which is a pain.

Are you missing any information/files that you would need to test mixing two kinds of footage on your timeline in your preferred codec?

John McDonald · October 13th, 2009, 09:02 AM

Thanks Bob, yes 25p may be the way to go, but it seems a shame to own a fancy camera and use it on the lowest setting ;-)

Even my old MiniDV consumer camera managed 50i

I think 25p would struggle with my style of shooting - lots of moving things and camera movements?

I sucked in your Canon footage, via prores a 10meg file became 250meg - via prores proxy it became 55meg (plus you have to keep the original).

I have 12 500gig drives, but they will disappear quickly with backups etc....

So I think another hm100 is the only easy option - but another £2700 is probably too much - I can drive from Morocco to Cape Town on that in 6 months ;-)

Decisions! ;-)

Robert Rogoz · October 13th, 2009, 09:18 AM

For the price of 12 drives you might be better off buying a massive RAID, which will work as a back-up itself.
What I would also consider is a small camera recording in H.264 (like Aptec), something you can edit in FCP.

John McDonald · October 13th, 2009, 01:04 PM

Thanks Robert, I don't really have mains power, only 12 volt in my Land Rover, so I need to use bus powered USB and FW800 drives (only one, stupid new mbp's only have one port ;-) and power the mbp through 12 volt (which in itself is a challenge because of the patented magsafe connecter!)

Do you have a weblink to the Aptec you mention, thanks?

Robert Rogoz · October 13th, 2009, 09:18 PM

John, this is the link: Aiptek | Action-HD 1080P High Definition Camcorder | A-HDPRO

John McDonald · October 14th, 2009, 08:11 AM

Thanks mate, the Aiptek's look good for knock about cameras but again don't do 1280 720 at 50fps - so back to the same problem as with all of the others.......

Robert Rogoz · October 14th, 2009, 10:50 AM

It does 720/60p, so I bet PAL version would do 720/50p

October 10th, 2009, 02:12 PM	#38
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	Thanks Bob, I did and that was very kind of you to do them for a complete stranger! They came into FCP very easily as you say, but the question then becomes how do I get my HM100 footage (1280 720 50p) and the Canon footage (or anything else) to coexist on the same timeline for editing? As my project is likely to last 2 years, it will likely contain a few hundred hours of footage at least, which if it is different formats will mean some serious conversion time - and living in a vehicle I only have about 3 hours of Macbook Pro run time each day, if I can manage that at all (I'm in Africa, it's hot and sweaty sitting inside a vehicle at night, lots of mosi's etc etc ;-). So I don't see any easy answer for my situation except for a 2nd HM100, but I need a smaller camera etc. Though I admit I haven't made films for a few years, back when MiniDV was so easy format wise. So FCP mixed format timeline and ProRes etc etc is all a mystery to me, so maybe I am missing a simple trick? Another though: Dropping the 50p side of things would make life simpler with converting footage - at least then in 25p or whatever the footage would be the same size and frame rate, just in a different codec to start with? Last edited by John McDonald; October 10th, 2009 at 02:55 PM.

October 6th, 2009, 08:54 AM	#31
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Doesn't Sanyo make PAL versions of their little cameras? You could shoot 1080i50 (with any of a number of small consumer camcorders) and deinterlace (and downsize) to 720p50 using something like YADIF.

October 6th, 2009, 04:12 PM	#32
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	I'd recommend AVCHD camcorders like the Canon HFS100 which is a wonderful camcorder, has great image quality, and great progressive modes like 30P, EXCEPT the transcoding involved to actually edit the media. The transcoding takes a bit of time and the resulting file sizes are much larger than the original AVCHD, like 2x (Prores Proxy) to 3x (Prores LT) to 5x (Prores 422). If you have FCS 3 using FCP 7, you have the option of transcoding them to 'Prores LT' or Prores Proxy, which allows you to edit the files with pretty good quality and speed. Just remember the transcoding on a Macbook Pro will take some time, and also you might run out of storage and the internal drives of these laptops are not that fast. External FW800 drives are usually a lot faster.

October 7th, 2009, 02:24 AM	#35
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	Thanks Robert, No PC I'm afraid, I'm living in a Land Rover about to drive across Africa so looking to avoid any extra equipment (or extensive encoding/compression etc).

October 10th, 2009, 06:57 AM	#36
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	I think I give up. There isn't any easy answer. Having to convert footage to work with the footage from the HM100 takes away from the advantage that the HM100 offers (easy to get footage into fcp and start editing). I'm deciding if I can justify the expense of another HM100 or will just set off with the one camera.

October 10th, 2009, 12:08 PM	#37
Bob Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 178	Re: Conversion -- Did you try the Canon clips I provided? You should be able to just use Log & Transfer to bring them directly into Final Cut. The import process on most macs I've tried is faster than real-time. Not rapid and direct like the HM-100, but still a supported solution within FC and faster than tape-based. No third-party utilities required.

October 12th, 2009, 08:13 AM	#39
Bob Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 178	<em>Another though: Dropping the 50p side of things would make life simpler with converting footage - at least then in 25p or whatever the footage would be the same size and frame rate, just in a different codec to start with?</em> I don't know for sure, so someone would have to test this, but I believe that all AVCHD (Canon) footage brought in by Log & Transfer is going to require rendering no matter what format of timeline you drop it on. However, the renderer is going to be doing the most work decoding the individual AVCHD frames... duplicating those frames to match a faster timeline shouldn't take any significant additional time, so a 25p AVCHD stream shouldn't take (much) more time to place on a 50p timeline than it would on a 25p timeline. As I'm still stuck using Final Cut Express HD, everything I do has to be rendered after import on an Apple Intermediate Codec timeline, which is a pain. Are you missing any information/files that you would need to test mixing two kinds of footage on your timeline in your preferred codec?

October 13th, 2009, 09:02 AM	#40
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	Thanks Bob, yes 25p may be the way to go, but it seems a shame to own a fancy camera and use it on the lowest setting ;-) Even my old MiniDV consumer camera managed 50i I think 25p would struggle with my style of shooting - lots of moving things and camera movements? I sucked in your Canon footage, via prores a 10meg file became 250meg - via prores proxy it became 55meg (plus you have to keep the original). I have 12 500gig drives, but they will disappear quickly with backups etc.... So I think another hm100 is the only easy option - but another £2700 is probably too much - I can drive from Morocco to Cape Town on that in 6 months ;-) Decisions! ;-)

October 13th, 2009, 09:18 AM	#41
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	For the price of 12 drives you might be better off buying a massive RAID, which will work as a back-up itself. What I would also consider is a small camera recording in H.264 (like Aptec), something you can edit in FCP.

October 13th, 2009, 01:04 PM	#42
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	Thanks Robert, I don't really have mains power, only 12 volt in my Land Rover, so I need to use bus powered USB and FW800 drives (only one, stupid new mbp's only have one port ;-) and power the mbp through 12 volt (which in itself is a challenge because of the patented magsafe connecter!) Do you have a weblink to the Aptec you mention, thanks?

October 13th, 2009, 09:18 PM	#43
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	John, this is the link: Aiptek \| Action-HD 1080P High Definition Camcorder \| A-HDPRO

October 14th, 2009, 08:11 AM	#44
John McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: London, UK. Posts: 53	Thanks mate, the Aiptek's look good for knock about cameras but again don't do 1280 720 at 50fps - so back to the same problem as with all of the others.......

October 14th, 2009, 10:50 AM	#45
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	It does 720/60p, so I bet PAL version would do 720/50p