Cameras and Relationships

Don Bloom · July 1st, 2009, 08:15 PM

carry this a step further. IMO the Sony EX1 and EX3 are not very ergonomically friendly, I think most would agree. The JVC HD200/250 HM700 are great form factor, compact full size, so again, just MO but what IF Sony came out the the EX3 in the JVCHD200/250/HM700 form factor. 1/2" camera, great LCD and all the other great things about the EX3 but in a form factor that makes sense instead of a should leaner that everyone seems to be looking for a reliable shoulder mount type bracket. OR what if JVC came out with the HM700 as a 1/2 camera and had the MXF codec as a switchable instead of having to spend another $1000+ to get the attachment. Now perhaps it's all a pipedream but IMO either one of those would have been the ideal camera and whoever had it first be it Sony or JVC I think would have hit a Grand Slam homer.
Ah well, one can dream RIGHT!?!?!

Lynne Whelden · July 1st, 2009, 08:48 PM

I used to think a shoulder-mounted camera was best but not anymore. I say take all the features you mention and put them in a hand-held, palm-sized package. Stabilization circuitry being what it is, there should be no difference. I think we're at a point where bigger doesn't mean better. It's taken me 30 years to come around but I think I can now enter a room with a small camera and a fair amount of hard-won wisdom and not feel intimidated.

Don Bloom · July 2nd, 2009, 05:51 AM

Hi Lynne,
I agree, small form factor cams are great, personally I prefer the shoulder cam BUT I hate the size and weight so I really like the compact full size but the point is, we can disagree about what we like and don't like and it doesn't matter cause the mfgrs. don't have it anyway ;-)
It goes to what I've been saying for years. No perfect camera. Ahh well, too bad. Some are close no matter the form factor but none are "the perfect cam". Maybe one day.

William Hohauser · July 2nd, 2009, 06:51 AM

The "wrist" cam is great for running around and getting a shot here and there. And now that self-consciously shaky camera work is the norm, I guess people don't notice it as much anymore when arm fatigue sets in. However, a day with a camera that's pivoting on my wrist is too much no matter how light it is. That's why I got a cheap, lightweight Spiderbrace for my Sony PD170 years ago. Tripod based shooting is a different matter, a small camera is just fine and easier to carry around and set up. Actually the PD170 is one of the small pro cameras that managed to get designed just about right. Talk about an EX1 or 3 in a JVC chassis? How about an HM100 in a PD170 chassis? Now that I would buy!

Shaun Roemich · July 2nd, 2009, 09:11 AM

William brings up a good point: I REFUSE to use "handicam" styled cameras as "wrist cams". I support the base of the camera in my left hand, cradled tight against my body and use my right hand on top to actuate zoom. My left thumb is usually in an ideal position to focus (and on the EX1 can adjust iris). This is on client cameras. I own two JVC HD200U's and bought them for much of the same reasons listed above.

Expecting to slide one's hand into the hand grip on a "wrist cam" and produce steady handheld work for extended periods of time is either mad OR you've got a LOT more stability than I do.

Brian Rhodes · July 2nd, 2009, 09:37 AM

Thats why I do not leave home without my Mono pod.

Rick Bolton · July 6th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Lynne - right on !!

My purchasing has been delayed for many of the reasons you have outlined - the technology IS available but the manufacturers have decided to not put together the package we desire.

My belief is that such a camera would substantially eat into their profits on the higher end cameras. As the prosumer offerings deliver images close to the professional offerings and do so at 1/2 the price - well - here we are.

Lynne Whelden · July 6th, 2009, 04:25 PM

Really, when you think about it, I bet the camcorder company executives are sweating bullets these days. There are probably insider papers showing that people are happy with hi-def as it currently exists. So what's a company to do? Convince us that we need 2160 p instead of 1080 p when our eyes can't tell the difference? No, they'll just have to string things out for decades. Look at all the variations on one theme Sony did this past year. That's probably a harbinger of things to come in our lifetime. Anything...anything but what we really need.

Vaughan Wood · July 7th, 2009, 07:49 PM

This is an interesting discussion, and it makes me question just what influence those people who get a pre-production sample of a new model, actually have.

Do the companies just give samples to those who will spread the positive word and create a buzz for them, or do they actually have an input into changing the no-so-good "features" of the new camera that could actually help the user.

Like the one's mentioned in this thread for the HM100, and were clearly evident at the release of the EX 1.

I think it clearly shows the companies are really only interested in the former.

Cheers,

Vaughan

Rick Bolton · July 8th, 2009, 11:38 AM

The companies are interested in profits - adding the features we have been expecting will erode their profit from their "pro line" and they don't want to break ranks by delivering what they could now.

Do we really believe that the technology does not affordably exist to deliver a cmos sensor with adequate bandwidth to eliminate the rolling shutter artifacts? Low light performance, global shutter, power efficiency, and balanced resolution are all within our technology grasp - some manufacturer needs to step up to the plate and deliver the goods and reap the rewards.

Collusion at a minimum - a cartel and anti competitive conduct at worst.

Rick Bolton · July 8th, 2009, 11:45 AM

BTW - they can't figure out how to cool 1/2" or 2/3" ccd sensors in a more affordable package - another solution at hand.

Lynne - thanks for surfacing this issue - it has been a developing view of mine as I have been reviewing all of the "compromised" product releases.

One of the companies really needs to pop the top off this trend and garner major market share - and it is NOT Red with their $$$$$$ products.

Lynne Whelden · July 8th, 2009, 11:52 AM

I couldn't have said it better!
Seriously, does anyone have a connection to a congressman/woman who might look into this? I mean, if they can hold hearings on the BCS football scheme (I am not kidding), couldn't they look into this? Only problem is, all these companies we're suspecting are overseas.

Jack Walker · July 8th, 2009, 12:48 PM

Out of curiosity, can one of you define the specifics of this mystery camera that everyone wants, but the manufacturers have conspired to keep from the market?

How many of the units would you expect to sell if this camera came out? Would this camera put every other camera off the market?

Finally, what are you using to make video now if you refuse to buy a camera now because nothing out there is good enough for you?

Just curious.

Rick Bolton · July 8th, 2009, 01:01 PM

Jack - for starters:

1/2" or 2/3" ccd based cameras - good low light performance in small form / factor.

1/2" or 2/3" cmos based cameras WITH GLOBAL SHUTTER - the time has come!!!

dual control rings on the lens

dual axis CAC

HD - SDI out

SDHC or CF storage

Rick Bolton · July 8th, 2009, 01:16 PM

Let me add to that interchangeable lenses on cameras w/o doubling the price - so many of the features we need can be incorporated into far more capable pro-sumer units.

It really is about the product managers carefully crafting the product price/performance profile for max profit.

Also - look at something like Canon's new 500D - 15.5 million detectors with 4753 x 3168 resolution - $750 or so - our highly touted 1920 x 1080 HD is not all that HD in many ways.

July 1st, 2009, 08:15 PM	#16
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	carry this a step further. IMO the Sony EX1 and EX3 are not very ergonomically friendly, I think most would agree. The JVC HD200/250 HM700 are great form factor, compact full size, so again, just MO but what IF Sony came out the the EX3 in the JVCHD200/250/HM700 form factor. 1/2" camera, great LCD and all the other great things about the EX3 but in a form factor that makes sense instead of a should leaner that everyone seems to be looking for a reliable shoulder mount type bracket. OR what if JVC came out with the HM700 as a 1/2 camera and had the MXF codec as a switchable instead of having to spend another $1000+ to get the attachment. Now perhaps it's all a pipedream but IMO either one of those would have been the ideal camera and whoever had it first be it Sony or JVC I think would have hit a Grand Slam homer. Ah well, one can dream RIGHT!?!?! __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

July 2nd, 2009, 05:51 AM	#18
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Hi Lynne, I agree, small form factor cams are great, personally I prefer the shoulder cam BUT I hate the size and weight so I really like the compact full size but the point is, we can disagree about what we like and don't like and it doesn't matter cause the mfgrs. don't have it anyway ;-) It goes to what I've been saying for years. No perfect camera. Ahh well, too bad. Some are close no matter the form factor but none are "the perfect cam". Maybe one day. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

July 2nd, 2009, 06:51 AM	#19
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	The "wrist" cam is great for running around and getting a shot here and there. And now that self-consciously shaky camera work is the norm, I guess people don't notice it as much anymore when arm fatigue sets in. However, a day with a camera that's pivoting on my wrist is too much no matter how light it is. That's why I got a cheap, lightweight Spiderbrace for my Sony PD170 years ago. Tripod based shooting is a different matter, a small camera is just fine and easier to carry around and set up. Actually the PD170 is one of the small pro cameras that managed to get designed just about right. Talk about an EX1 or 3 in a JVC chassis? How about an HM100 in a PD170 chassis? Now that I would buy! __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

July 2nd, 2009, 09:11 AM	#20
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	William brings up a good point: I REFUSE to use "handicam" styled cameras as "wrist cams". I support the base of the camera in my left hand, cradled tight against my body and use my right hand on top to actuate zoom. My left thumb is usually in an ideal position to focus (and on the EX1 can adjust iris). This is on client cameras. I own two JVC HD200U's and bought them for much of the same reasons listed above. Expecting to slide one's hand into the hand grip on a "wrist cam" and produce steady handheld work for extended periods of time is either mad OR you've got a LOT more stability than I do. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

July 8th, 2009, 11:52 AM	#27
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	Hearings called for? I couldn't have said it better! Seriously, does anyone have a connection to a congressman/woman who might look into this? I mean, if they can hold hearings on the BCS football scheme (I am not kidding), couldn't they look into this? Only problem is, all these companies we're suspecting are overseas.

July 1st, 2009, 08:48 PM	#17
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	I used to think a shoulder-mounted camera was best but not anymore. I say take all the features you mention and put them in a hand-held, palm-sized package. Stabilization circuitry being what it is, there should be no difference. I think we're at a point where bigger doesn't mean better. It's taken me 30 years to come around but I think I can now enter a room with a small camera and a fair amount of hard-won wisdom and not feel intimidated.

July 2nd, 2009, 09:37 AM	#21
Brian Rhodes Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 753	Thats why I do not leave home without my Mono pod.

July 6th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#22
Rick Bolton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Palo Alto California Posts: 110	Lynne - right on !! My purchasing has been delayed for many of the reasons you have outlined - the technology IS available but the manufacturers have decided to not put together the package we desire. My belief is that such a camera would substantially eat into their profits on the higher end cameras. As the prosumer offerings deliver images close to the professional offerings and do so at 1/2 the price - well - here we are.

July 6th, 2009, 04:25 PM	#23
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	Really, when you think about it, I bet the camcorder company executives are sweating bullets these days. There are probably insider papers showing that people are happy with hi-def as it currently exists. So what's a company to do? Convince us that we need 2160 p instead of 1080 p when our eyes can't tell the difference? No, they'll just have to string things out for decades. Look at all the variations on one theme Sony did this past year. That's probably a harbinger of things to come in our lifetime. Anything...anything but what we really need.

July 7th, 2009, 07:49 PM	#24
Vaughan Wood Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 278	This is an interesting discussion, and it makes me question just what influence those people who get a pre-production sample of a new model, actually have. Do the companies just give samples to those who will spread the positive word and create a buzz for them, or do they actually have an input into changing the no-so-good "features" of the new camera that could actually help the user. Like the one's mentioned in this thread for the HM100, and were clearly evident at the release of the EX 1. I think it clearly shows the companies are really only interested in the former. Cheers, Vaughan

July 8th, 2009, 11:38 AM	#25
Rick Bolton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Palo Alto California Posts: 110	The companies are interested in profits - adding the features we have been expecting will erode their profit from their "pro line" and they don't want to break ranks by delivering what they could now. Do we really believe that the technology does not affordably exist to deliver a cmos sensor with adequate bandwidth to eliminate the rolling shutter artifacts? Low light performance, global shutter, power efficiency, and balanced resolution are all within our technology grasp - some manufacturer needs to step up to the plate and deliver the goods and reap the rewards. Collusion at a minimum - a cartel and anti competitive conduct at worst.

July 8th, 2009, 11:45 AM	#26
Rick Bolton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Palo Alto California Posts: 110	BTW - they can't figure out how to cool 1/2" or 2/3" ccd sensors in a more affordable package - another solution at hand. Lynne - thanks for surfacing this issue - it has been a developing view of mine as I have been reviewing all of the "compromised" product releases. One of the companies really needs to pop the top off this trend and garner major market share - and it is NOT Red with their $$$$$$ products.

July 8th, 2009, 12:48 PM	#28
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Out of curiosity, can one of you define the specifics of this mystery camera that everyone wants, but the manufacturers have conspired to keep from the market? How many of the units would you expect to sell if this camera came out? Would this camera put every other camera off the market? Finally, what are you using to make video now if you refuse to buy a camera now because nothing out there is good enough for you? Just curious.

July 8th, 2009, 01:01 PM	#29
Rick Bolton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Palo Alto California Posts: 110	Jack - for starters: 1/2" or 2/3" ccd based cameras - good low light performance in small form / factor. 1/2" or 2/3" cmos based cameras WITH GLOBAL SHUTTER - the time has come!!! dual control rings on the lens dual axis CAC HD - SDI out SDHC or CF storage

July 8th, 2009, 01:16 PM	#30
Rick Bolton Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Palo Alto California Posts: 110	Let me add to that interchangeable lenses on cameras w/o doubling the price - so many of the features we need can be incorporated into far more capable pro-sumer units. It really is about the product managers carefully crafting the product price/performance profile for max profit. Also - look at something like Canon's new 500D - 15.5 million detectors with 4753 x 3168 resolution - $750 or so - our highly touted 1920 x 1080 HD is not all that HD in many ways.