Can I use the Jvc HM100 as an A cam?

Kaushik Parmar · July 11th, 2009, 10:01 PM

I am not sure others have already seen this but I have seen first time and liked it:
JVC Professional - Camcorder MDL101845

Kaushik

Shaun Roemich · July 13th, 2009, 10:51 AM

Regarding size and quality and client perceptions:
I think that one of the things that CAN come up is if gear is somehow misrepresented OR an unfairly large amount is requested for the "rental".

From personal experience:
A number of years ago, I had a gig for broadcast and had requested a second camera operator (a friend of a friend). I had rented a Sony D35 dockable head with DVCam back and had set aside a second similar kit, with Sachtler tripods. "Buddy" says, oh man, don't worry about it. I'll bring MY camera kit. How much are you paying for the Sony rentals?"

Rental was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $450 a day each kit. He says, oh no problem. I can do that for you on my kit.

The day of the shoot, "Buddy" shows up with a Canon XL-1 and a Velbon tripod and ONE stock battery that he says isn't QUITE fully charged so we'll need to use "my" camera more. I ask "so how much are you charging me for the rental?"

"$500. That's what you were going to pay for the other camera and tripod and this is just as good because it's digital too".

I shot the entire thing myself with one camera. I'm sure you can still see the boot mark on his arse.

The moral of this story: there are expectations that need to be met based on budget and end usage. If you are charging appropriately for your gear AND it is fit for the purpose, you should be fine. But IF you misrepresent your gear, it's suitability for purpose OR your abilities, be prepared to get called on it.

Thus endeth the sermon.

Shaun Roemich · July 13th, 2009, 10:53 AM

PS. I have shot TV commercials and international documentaries on a Sony PD150 so this is NOT to say that "big" cameras are always needed. Sometimes the smaller the better. But I never charged as much for the PD150 as I did for $50k rental cameras.

Kevin Duffey · July 13th, 2009, 12:22 PM

Are you guys charging fees to rent gear.. or what it would cost to rent gear, but own your own gear already? I am curious how that works. It sounds like you're renting gear for every shoot.. but I figured you'd have your own gear as well?

Robert Rogoz · July 13th, 2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

PS. I have shot TV commercials and international documentaries on a Sony PD150 so this is NOT to say that "big" cameras are always needed. Sometimes the smaller the better. But I never charged as much for the PD150 as I did for $50k rental cameras.

What does size or cost of camera have to do with how much do you charge? What you charge for is your knowledge and skill. This will enable you to choose the right tool (camera, lights, sound equipment) to achieve a desired and result. Every project should have a budget, so the cost of equipment rental is just a part of the cost of the project. Hence it will be less to rent PD150 then to rent PDW-700, so your cost of a piece shot with PD-150 will be less then with PDW-700. However your hourly/daily rate should be calculated at the same rate, as your skill does not change. It would be like asking a programmer to charge less if he/she works on laptop instead on desktop.

Shaun Roemich · July 13th, 2009, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Rogoz

What does size or cost of camera have to do with how much do you charge? What you charge for is your knowledge and skill.

BZZZT wrong. I charge a day rate for labour and a rental rate for gear. This is INCREDIBLY common in industry.

Shaun Roemich · July 13th, 2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Duffey

It sounds like you're renting gear for every shoot.. but I figured you'd have your own gear as well?

I rent virtually nothing. I have invested a quarter of a million dollars in the past 11 years (which if I had to offload tomorrow, I might get $35k for...) which allows for cameras, edit bay, VTRs (plural), 2 light kits, mics, wireless, mixers and field mixers, live switch gear and more cables and adaptors than I care to count.

Also, software and royalty free audio and GFX.

What I DON'T have is a teleprompter, HMI lighting, a second wireless, jibs and dolly track, camera stabilizers and the like.

I charge out gear separate from labour and take what I THINK I'll need into consideration when quoting a gig OR presenting rates to fellow producers. My investment in my gear is VERY different than the investment (both financially and time wise) I've made in myself and my professional development.

Robert Rogoz · July 13th, 2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

BZZZT wrong. I charge a day rate for labour and a rental rate for gear. This is INCREDIBLY common in industry.

Bzzzzt, wrong. If you submit a budget or a bid, your rate is above the line item, equipment rental is below the line cost. Grip, camera man, even editor are below the cost. Director, DP, writer are above the line. If you submit a proposal and you want to get funding this is the only way it will be looked at.
But this has nothing to do with HM100 being an A camera.

Shaun Roemich · July 13th, 2009, 05:02 PM

Robert: in corporate, training & education and freelance work, there IS no above the line and below the line, there is only a line itemized (if you so choose) budget. And who said anything about looking for funding. Obviously we do very different work. If I supply my gear, I get paid for it. Period.

And the whole discussion is in support of MY opinion that if one is open and honest about what camera one is using, the less one will have to explain later. It's all about managing client expectations.

Jack Walker · July 13th, 2009, 11:22 PM

Actually, above-the-line does not include the DP or any crew. Above-the-line costs are writer, director, producers, cast and stunts... and cast that are not lead actors are not included.

Above-the-line is the creative aspects of the project, and the development costs. These are the pieces that make the project what it is, and pulling any one of them out on the way to the first production day will cause a major hiccup and may even doom the whole thing. It's also possible to go over budget here, even when nobody is doing much except sitting around, drinking coffee (or other) and talking.

Some DPs make the crossover to directing, and certainly many DPs contribute a lot to the final look and feel of the project, but they are not the creative force behind the spine of the project, and they are below-the-line costs.

Now, the lone genius with a video camera who writes, directs and shoots all on her own, is more accurately called an auteur, dated as the word may be... and the most arrogant ones are sometimes given other colorful names.

Doug Tessler · July 14th, 2009, 03:20 AM

I represent that ! lol I am not arrogant !!

Doug

"the lone genius with a video camera who writes, directs and shoots all on her own, is more accurately called an auteur, dated as the word may be... and the most arrogant ones are sometimes given other colorful names"

Robert Rogoz · July 14th, 2009, 09:02 AM

Jack, I think stuntmen are also below the line. You are right on DP (if DP is not creative position I don't know what is), same with editors.
And yes, one person can be a writer, a producer, director, dp, grip editor and a driver- that's my whole point- the hourly rate should remain the same regardless of the equipment used.
Can HM100 be an A cam? Yes for some, no for others. Like any tool it will have it's limitations.

Alex Humphrey · July 14th, 2009, 01:23 PM

Well taking a break from some mind numbing editing... zzzzz I shoot a JVC HD110, with IDX and Focus enhancement drive hanging off the back end plus a big mic and a softie off the front. Instantly my mid pay clients are happy that they signed me instead of someone else. My low paying clients (too many, I live in the country) are just happy I showed up. And my high paying clients (not enough, I live in the country) complain about something somewhere so they can try to get a break later.....(bastards). . .. nothing beats something big with lots of stuff hanging off the back. If I showed up with a better HM700 (with less stuff hanging off the back but instead incorporated into the unit and newer and better and more reliable camera) they would be less impressed. (clients.. can't they just say what they want, pay you, and then shut up and get out of the way?????) Need to go back to feature films I think....

Now what matters at that point and after is what you do with it. I've seen lots of great work done with $3,000 cameras and terrible work done by $35,000 cameras.. I personally like (learned) on the shoulder mount, removable real manual lens (tethered to a VTR since camcorders where not invented yet....) and I'm happiest and hence best with shoulder cameras. The handy cams annoy me, but I would like to get a HM100 or even a Canon A1 as a 2nd/3rd camera for the tight places or hand off to a inexperienced volunteer who can maybe get some good shots that will cut together well with my footage.

so I guess the bigger question about is the HM100 an A camera.. what do YOU like to shoot with? If you like one type of camera for shooting better than another, you will be better at it.

For me, no handy cam will ever be an A camera. I hate them. But I wouldn't mind one as a B or C camera since they are soo small, light, and have some decent manual controls and auto controls for newbies.... That and for fun stuff.. I groan at the idea of pulling my beast out of the closet to go outside and tape a small event for friends.. wish I had a little HM100 or even a Canon 3 chip HDV to tape the fun stuff.

July 11th, 2009, 10:01 PM	#16
Kaushik Parmar Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NJ, USA Posts: 339	Gy-hm100 I am not sure others have already seen this but I have seen first time and liked it: JVC Professional - Camcorder MDL101845 Kaushik

July 13th, 2009, 10:51 AM	#17
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Regarding size and quality and client perceptions: I think that one of the things that CAN come up is if gear is somehow misrepresented OR an unfairly large amount is requested for the "rental". From personal experience: A number of years ago, I had a gig for broadcast and had requested a second camera operator (a friend of a friend). I had rented a Sony D35 dockable head with DVCam back and had set aside a second similar kit, with Sachtler tripods. "Buddy" says, oh man, don't worry about it. I'll bring MY camera kit. How much are you paying for the Sony rentals?" Rental was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $450 a day each kit. He says, oh no problem. I can do that for you on my kit. The day of the shoot, "Buddy" shows up with a Canon XL-1 and a Velbon tripod and ONE stock battery that he says isn't QUITE fully charged so we'll need to use "my" camera more. I ask "so how much are you charging me for the rental?" "$500. That's what you were going to pay for the other camera and tripod and this is just as good because it's digital too". I shot the entire thing myself with one camera. I'm sure you can still see the boot mark on his arse. The moral of this story: there are expectations that need to be met based on budget and end usage. If you are charging appropriately for your gear AND it is fit for the purpose, you should be fine. But IF you misrepresent your gear, it's suitability for purpose OR your abilities, be prepared to get called on it. Thus endeth the sermon. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

July 13th, 2009, 10:53 AM	#18
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	PS. I have shot TV commercials and international documentaries on a Sony PD150 so this is NOT to say that "big" cameras are always needed. Sometimes the smaller the better. But I never charged as much for the PD150 as I did for $50k rental cameras. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

July 13th, 2009, 05:02 PM	#24
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Robert: in corporate, training & education and freelance work, there IS no above the line and below the line, there is only a line itemized (if you so choose) budget. And who said anything about looking for funding. Obviously we do very different work. If I supply my gear, I get paid for it. Period. And the whole discussion is in support of MY opinion that if one is open and honest about what camera one is using, the less one will have to explain later. It's all about managing client expectations. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

July 14th, 2009, 03:20 AM	#26
Doug Tessler Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: BOCa raton fl Posts: 342	ok now I represent that ! lol I am not arrogant !! Doug "the lone genius with a video camera who writes, directs and shoots all on her own, is more accurately called an auteur, dated as the word may be... and the most arrogant ones are sometimes given other colorful names"

July 13th, 2009, 12:22 PM	#19
Kevin Duffey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: California Posts: 206	Are you guys charging fees to rent gear.. or what it would cost to rent gear, but own your own gear already? I am curious how that works. It sounds like you're renting gear for every shoot.. but I figured you'd have your own gear as well?

July 13th, 2009, 11:22 PM	#25
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Actually, above-the-line does not include the DP or any crew. Above-the-line costs are writer, director, producers, cast and stunts... and cast that are not lead actors are not included. Above-the-line is the creative aspects of the project, and the development costs. These are the pieces that make the project what it is, and pulling any one of them out on the way to the first production day will cause a major hiccup and may even doom the whole thing. It's also possible to go over budget here, even when nobody is doing much except sitting around, drinking coffee (or other) and talking. Some DPs make the crossover to directing, and certainly many DPs contribute a lot to the final look and feel of the project, but they are not the creative force behind the spine of the project, and they are below-the-line costs. Now, the lone genius with a video camera who writes, directs and shoots all on her own, is more accurately called an auteur, dated as the word may be... and the most arrogant ones are sometimes given other colorful names.

July 14th, 2009, 09:02 AM	#27
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	Jack, I think stuntmen are also below the line. You are right on DP (if DP is not creative position I don't know what is), same with editors. And yes, one person can be a writer, a producer, director, dp, grip editor and a driver- that's my whole point- the hourly rate should remain the same regardless of the equipment used. Can HM100 be an A cam? Yes for some, no for others. Like any tool it will have it's limitations.

July 14th, 2009, 01:23 PM	#28
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	Well taking a break from some mind numbing editing... zzzzz I shoot a JVC HD110, with IDX and Focus enhancement drive hanging off the back end plus a big mic and a softie off the front. Instantly my mid pay clients are happy that they signed me instead of someone else. My low paying clients (too many, I live in the country) are just happy I showed up. And my high paying clients (not enough, I live in the country) complain about something somewhere so they can try to get a break later.....(bastards). . .. nothing beats something big with lots of stuff hanging off the back. If I showed up with a better HM700 (with less stuff hanging off the back but instead incorporated into the unit and newer and better and more reliable camera) they would be less impressed. (clients.. can't they just say what they want, pay you, and then shut up and get out of the way?????) Need to go back to feature films I think.... Now what matters at that point and after is what you do with it. I've seen lots of great work done with $3,000 cameras and terrible work done by $35,000 cameras.. I personally like (learned) on the shoulder mount, removable real manual lens (tethered to a VTR since camcorders where not invented yet....) and I'm happiest and hence best with shoulder cameras. The handy cams annoy me, but I would like to get a HM100 or even a Canon A1 as a 2nd/3rd camera for the tight places or hand off to a inexperienced volunteer who can maybe get some good shots that will cut together well with my footage. so I guess the bigger question about is the HM100 an A camera.. what do YOU like to shoot with? If you like one type of camera for shooting better than another, you will be better at it. For me, no handy cam will ever be an A camera. I hate them. But I wouldn't mind one as a B or C camera since they are soo small, light, and have some decent manual controls and auto controls for newbies.... That and for fun stuff.. I groan at the idea of pulling my beast out of the closet to go outside and tape a small event for friends.. wish I had a little HM100 or even a Canon 3 chip HDV to tape the fun stuff.