HDV to SD conversion at DVinfo.net

Dennis Robinson · March 6th, 2007, 03:15 AM

Hi,
I am now shooting 720/25p HDV on my JVC HD111 cam and have been offered suggestions on how to downconvert to SD in FCP5. As I understand, all that is required is to make a new SD timeline and drag the HDV footage into it. It seems to work ok. Do I have to change fields or anything else to give a better result or is this all that is needed. Can anyone help with a better workflow? It seems so simple if this is all I need to do. Would love your thoughts.
My main export will be "print to Video" back to tape for broadcast in SD.
From what I understand, the HDV footage looks better downconverted than originally shot in SD. Is this true?

Liam Hall · March 6th, 2007, 03:31 AM

It really is that simple and yes it will look better because it will retain more detail. It also gives you the option of faking tracking shots or dolly moves without any loss in quality.

Dennis Robinson · March 6th, 2007, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam Hall

It really is that simple and yes it will look better because it will retain more detail. It also gives you the option of faking tracking shots or dolly moves without any loss in quality.

Thanks Liam. Great to hear from you. I have been having so much trouble shooting hDV720/25p due to the judder. Very helpful people on this site steered me in the direction of how to shoot to avoid it and now, I am hooked on shooting progressive. It blows me away. Most of my work is TV commercials but with a bit more practice, I will be able to shoot HDV all the time.
What do you mean by faking tracking shots etc? I find I have to follow the subject to avoid the judder and have yet to use my dolly on it.

Liam Hall · March 6th, 2007, 04:18 AM

By faking tracking/dolly moves I mean taking advantage of the fact that the HD frame resolution is larger than SD. It's just a case of creating a move by adjusting the settings on the motion tab in FCP. It works particularly well for time-lapse. I'll try and post a few examples later.
Cheers,
Liam.

Brian Luce · March 6th, 2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam Hall

By faking tracking/dolly moves I mean taking advantage of the fact that the HD frame resolution is larger than SD. It's just a case of creating a move by adjusting the settings on the motion tab in FCP. It works particularly well for time-lapse. I'll try and post a few examples later.
Cheers,
Liam.

Do you mean zooming in on the frame?

Brian Luce · March 6th, 2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Robinson

Hi,
I am now shooting 720/25p HDV on my JVC HD111 cam and have been offered suggestions on how to downconvert to SD in FCP5. As I understand, all that is required is to make a new SD timeline and drag the HDV footage into it. It seems to work ok. Do I have to change fields or anything else to give a better result or is this all that is needed. Can anyone help with a better workflow? It seems so simple if this is all I need to do. Would love your thoughts.
My main export will be "print to Video" back to tape for broadcast in SD.
From what I understand, the HDV footage looks better downconverted than originally shot in SD. Is this true?

I've always heard it's best to do your downconvert as late in the process as possible. The last step before burn to dvd. Is this no longer conventional wisdom?

Dennis Robinson · March 6th, 2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

I've always heard it's best to do your downconvert as late in the process as possible. The last step before burn to dvd. Is this no longer conventional wisdom?

Hi Bruce, You may be right there. I have never finished a project in HDV so have never tried it. My main purpose is to Print to video for broadcast.
What workflow would you suggest for creating a Quicktime file and DVD?

Liam Hall · March 6th, 2007, 04:57 PM

Some fake camera moves;

http://www.liamhall.net/LonBroll23.mov

All the moves are done in post as the camera is always locked off. All quite simple and I'm sure lots of people are doing it but a good trick to have up your sleeve especially if you're out on your own.

Dennis Robinson · March 6th, 2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam Hall

Some fake camera moves;

http://www.liamhall.net/LonBroll23.mov

All the moves are done in post as the camera is always locked off. All quite simple and I'm sure lots of people are doing it but a good trick to have up your sleeve especially if you're out on your own.

Thank you Liam,
I am going to have a go at those. You have been a huge help to me.Once again, Thanks! This movement has been achieved in the SD timeline, or HDV?
What is your workflow.

Liam Hall · March 6th, 2007, 05:31 PM

Dennis, the shots in that movie are the simplest form of the trick. More realistic tilts, pans and even handheld wobbles can easily be achieved.

My quick and dirty FCP workflow;

Shoot HDV
Edit in the HD codec of your choice.
Drop the HD edit into an SD timeline.
Double click individual shots on the SD timeline to open in viewer.
Apply any filters/colour correction etc.
Click the motion tab on the viewer, set a key frame for all the settings you want to affect at the first and last frames of the shot and move the image
around to your hearts content.

You'll laugh at how simple this is once you've given it a go.

Cheers,

Liam.

Dennis Robinson · March 6th, 2007, 05:41 PM

Hi Liam,
I have already given it a go in a TV commercial I finished off yesterday. Looks great. Thanks so much.

David Knaggs · March 6th, 2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Robinson

Hi Bruce, You may be right there. I have never finished a project in HDV so have never tried it. My main purpose is to Print to video for broadcast.
What workflow would you suggest for creating a Quicktime file and DVD?

Hi Dennis (and also in reply to Brian's earlier question about when to downconvert).

There is a "classic" post by Nate Weaver called "On the subject of HD downconversion" where he discusses: 1-Downconverting in an FCP timeline, 2-Downconverting via Export, and 3-Downconverting via Compressor.

He found "Downconverting via Compressor" to give the best results and I have to agree (from my own experiences).

Several months ago, I had to add new footage to an old corporate job (everything shot in 720p25). The old job had taken 720p25 footage and edited it in an SD timeline. The footage looked very nice on the final DVD (of the original job). When I added the new footage, I decided to do it in a 720p25 timeline (which also meant extra editing work on the original footage) and then directly export from the timeline into compressor to make the .m2v and .ac3 files for the DVD (SD PAL). The difference was stunning. Literally stunning. No way would I ever downconvert in the timeline again (when going out to SD DVD).

My only theory to explain it is to use the analogy of how a 35mm feature film (with well over a thousand lines of resolution) seems to keep a lot of its "look" even when squeezed down into 576 lines. So you'll get a better visual result asking Compressor to squeeze 720 lines into 576 lines as opposed to only giving it 576 lines to work with in the first place (when you've already downconverted in the timeline).

I've made a number of posts in the Mac (FCP) forum giving my workflow from 720p25 timeline to Compressor to DVD Studio Pro (they should be easy to find with the search function).

And Nate's original post/thread can be found here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=63494

Dennis Robinson · March 7th, 2007, 08:46 PM

Thanks David,
This has been so helpful. I have had a tough time learning how to use this camera. I am now starting to love the progressive look and after spending a lot of time learning shooting techiques, am game enough to shoot all my projects on HDV. Its a huge learning curve and I have been using a Canon XL1s for 4 years shooting TV commercials so I am experienced to some extent.

March 6th, 2007, 03:15 AM	#1
Dennis Robinson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 250	HDV to SD conversion Hi, I am now shooting 720/25p HDV on my JVC HD111 cam and have been offered suggestions on how to downconvert to SD in FCP5. As I understand, all that is required is to make a new SD timeline and drag the HDV footage into it. It seems to work ok. Do I have to change fields or anything else to give a better result or is this all that is needed. Can anyone help with a better workflow? It seems so simple if this is all I need to do. Would love your thoughts. My main export will be "print to Video" back to tape for broadcast in SD. From what I understand, the HDV footage looks better downconverted than originally shot in SD. Is this true? __________________ Dennis Robinson G5, , 30 inch display, FCP6 Studio 2, JVC-GYHD111

March 6th, 2007, 05:41 PM	#11
Dennis Robinson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 250	Hi Liam, I have already given it a go in a TV commercial I finished off yesterday. Looks great. Thanks so much. __________________ Dennis Robinson G5, , 30 inch display, FCP6 Studio 2, JVC-GYHD111

March 7th, 2007, 08:46 PM	#13
Dennis Robinson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 250	Thanks David, This has been so helpful. I have had a tough time learning how to use this camera. I am now starting to love the progressive look and after spending a lot of time learning shooting techiques, am game enough to shoot all my projects on HDV. Its a huge learning curve and I have been using a Canon XL1s for 4 years shooting TV commercials so I am experienced to some extent. __________________ Dennis Robinson G5, , 30 inch display, FCP6 Studio 2, JVC-GYHD111

March 6th, 2007, 03:31 AM	#2
Liam Hall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 969	It really is that simple and yes it will look better because it will retain more detail. It also gives you the option of faking tracking shots or dolly moves without any loss in quality.

March 6th, 2007, 04:18 AM	#4
Liam Hall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 969	By faking tracking/dolly moves I mean taking advantage of the fact that the HD frame resolution is larger than SD. It's just a case of creating a move by adjusting the settings on the motion tab in FCP. It works particularly well for time-lapse. I'll try and post a few examples later. Cheers, Liam.

March 6th, 2007, 04:57 PM	#8
Liam Hall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 969	Some fake camera moves; http://www.liamhall.net/LonBroll23.mov All the moves are done in post as the camera is always locked off. All quite simple and I'm sure lots of people are doing it but a good trick to have up your sleeve especially if you're out on your own.

March 6th, 2007, 05:31 PM	#10
Liam Hall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 969	Dennis, the shots in that movie are the simplest form of the trick. More realistic tilts, pans and even handheld wobbles can easily be achieved. My quick and dirty FCP workflow; Shoot HDV Edit in the HD codec of your choice. Drop the HD edit into an SD timeline. Double click individual shots on the SD timeline to open in viewer. Apply any filters/colour correction etc. Click the motion tab on the viewer, set a key frame for all the settings you want to affect at the first and last frames of the shot and move the image around to your hearts content. You'll laugh at how simple this is once you've given it a go. Cheers, Liam.