Unwanted judder 720/25p

Earl Thurston · February 19th, 2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Robinson

Here is the clip posted to give you an idea of the judder.

To me it looks like the motion smoothing filter is on in these clips -- I see "echos" from adjacent frames. If it is, try turning it off.

Some people swear that JVC's motion smoothing effect helps remove judder but I've always found it makes judder look worse. I never use it.

Tim Dashwood · February 19th, 2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl Thurston

To me it looks like the motion smoothing filter is on in these clips -- I see "echos" from adjacent frames. If it is, try turning it off.

Some people swear that JVC's motion smoothing effect helps remove judder but I've always found it makes judder look worse. I never use it.

I agree with Earl. It looks like motion smooth was turned on - and this is causing really weird "double-images" on the frames with high motion.
It also looks like a standard shutter of 1/50th for 25P was not used, causing a "strobing" effect. (It looks like 1/100th or 1/200th to me.) If this isn't the look you want, invest in some ND filters for shooting outside, or a polarizer (about equivalent with a N.6). Try to always keep your shutter at 1/50th for the most natural "film-motion" look and use ND/aperture to bring down the exposure.

Dennis Robinson · February 19th, 2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

I agree with Earl. It looks like motion smooth was turned on - and this is causing really weird "double-images" on the frames with high motion.
It also looks like a standard shutter of 1/50th for 25P was not used, causing a "strobing" effect. (It looks like 1/100th or 1/200th to me.) If this isn't the look you want, invest in some ND filters for shooting outside, or a polarizer (about equivalent with a N.6). Try to always keep your shutter at 1/50th for the most natural "film-motion" look and use ND/aperture to bring down the exposure.

Thanks guys,
The motion smoothing is turned on. I was told by others it will help. The standard shutter speed of 1/50 was used. If I crank the speed up, it is really bad and flickers as well.

Ben Chace · February 20th, 2007, 11:44 AM

Hi Dennis,

Just thought I'd my two cents. I have been shooting with the hd100 for about year and half and I'll tell you.. it has its issues. The Judder used to infuriate me, as it is you, but I have retrained myself to pan (or dolly) super slowly.. and have shot a lot of nice footage this way. Its still a pain in the ass at times, and this is certainly not a great action movie camera, but the resolution and colors are incredible. I find that, like any camera, you have to learn how to best utilize its strengths while minimizing its weaknesses.
I suggest low shutter speeds for fast movement with the camera, and higher shutter speeds if you are on a dolly and the subject is moving fast. Also anything you can do to separate foreground and background, either with lighting or depth of field adaptors, helps tremendously. Also, as a side note, since becoming so intimately aware of motion judder in trying to learn the best way to shoot with my hd100 I have noticed instances of judder in moving shots from several high budget features of the last year (for example pan's labyrinth and the painted veil). the hvx200 deals with motion a hell of a lot better, but the hd100 kicks its ass in resolution

good luck

Sean Adair · February 20th, 2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Chace

..... the hvx200 deals with motion a hell of a lot better, but the hd100 kicks its ass in resolution

I actually shot with the HVX quite a bit, and didn't use the JVC before buying it, but I'm curious to completely understand why the HVX would be beter dealing with motion -AT THE SAME FRAME RATE & SHUTTER SETTINGS.
The HVX offers 60P which is of course silky (if you keep it there, and we never did - it was for slomo only). But we were shooting 24P, and I can't see why the JVC would look more jerky at 24p and standard 1/48 shutter.
Personally, I think 24p is overused (abused?!), and 30p is a weird neither here nor there look with fast motion viewed on a normal TV. For viewing on a computer monitor, 30P is great - compresses better and preserves more detail.

Ben Chace · February 20th, 2007, 01:32 PM

the judder is partly the result of the hdv coding..
since only one in 6 frames is fully coded with the jvc
as opposed to all 6 with the hvx (in dvcprohd) the result
is sometimes the added judder... exacerbated when
shooting 24p.

the so-called super encoder that comes with the hd200 and
250 is supposed to minimise this effect..

Dennis Robinson · February 20th, 2007, 03:18 PM

Thank you all for your input on this issue. I had the idea that it was a problem with my camera only but it appears that this is normal. I have spent hours practising shooting styles and it is going to take many more to get the hang of shooting to avoid judder. You are right though, .. this camera takes a wonderful image even in SD format which is all I can use right now. I shot a TV commercial yesterday in SD50i and when i captured the footage last night, was amazed at how good it is.
I just felt that i would shoot everything in HD now and downconvert to SD while archiving the HD material till it is accepted by the TV stations.
I also produce Corporate videos and wanted to be able to offer the client HD right now as a bonus. That is just not possible and it wil be a long time till I get my skills up to the level required to shoot progressive. The new 200's seem to have the answer with 50p but FCP will not allow it yet so I will have to wait as well for that to happen. I also dont want to drop $3000 or $4000 on a brand new camera. I hate the small form handycam like the sonyZ1 or Panny. Having a decent size looking camera opens a lot of doors toward my image and I can charge a lot more.
Loaded with the matt box and large battery kit, the camera looks the part.
Just yesterday, I had a client call on me wanting a TV commercial produced. He didnt want to spend a lot of money as a small business but when i pointed to the camera I would be using, he said,.. wow.. that is some bit of gear. I quoted him an extra $1000 to test the water for his commercial and he snapped it up. Wrote me a check up front.
I have a lot to learn but I work hard for the client. I always do my best and that is why I would like to get this camera style right and usable.
Thank you for your replies.

February 20th, 2007, 03:18 PM	#22
Dennis Robinson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 250	Thank you all for your input on this issue. I had the idea that it was a problem with my camera only but it appears that this is normal. I have spent hours practising shooting styles and it is going to take many more to get the hang of shooting to avoid judder. You are right though, .. this camera takes a wonderful image even in SD format which is all I can use right now. I shot a TV commercial yesterday in SD50i and when i captured the footage last night, was amazed at how good it is. I just felt that i would shoot everything in HD now and downconvert to SD while archiving the HD material till it is accepted by the TV stations. I also produce Corporate videos and wanted to be able to offer the client HD right now as a bonus. That is just not possible and it wil be a long time till I get my skills up to the level required to shoot progressive. The new 200's seem to have the answer with 50p but FCP will not allow it yet so I will have to wait as well for that to happen. I also dont want to drop $3000 or $4000 on a brand new camera. I hate the small form handycam like the sonyZ1 or Panny. Having a decent size looking camera opens a lot of doors toward my image and I can charge a lot more. Loaded with the matt box and large battery kit, the camera looks the part. Just yesterday, I had a client call on me wanting a TV commercial produced. He didnt want to spend a lot of money as a small business but when i pointed to the camera I would be using, he said,.. wow.. that is some bit of gear. I quoted him an extra $1000 to test the water for his commercial and he snapped it up. Wrote me a check up front. I have a lot to learn but I work hard for the client. I always do my best and that is why I would like to get this camera style right and usable. Thank you for your replies. __________________ Dennis Robinson G5, , 30 inch display, FCP6 Studio 2, JVC-GYHD111

February 20th, 2007, 11:44 AM	#19
Ben Chace Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brooklyn, United States Posts: 60	Hi Dennis, Just thought I'd my two cents. I have been shooting with the hd100 for about year and half and I'll tell you.. it has its issues. The Judder used to infuriate me, as it is you, but I have retrained myself to pan (or dolly) super slowly.. and have shot a lot of nice footage this way. Its still a pain in the ass at times, and this is certainly not a great action movie camera, but the resolution and colors are incredible. I find that, like any camera, you have to learn how to best utilize its strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. I suggest low shutter speeds for fast movement with the camera, and higher shutter speeds if you are on a dolly and the subject is moving fast. Also anything you can do to separate foreground and background, either with lighting or depth of field adaptors, helps tremendously. Also, as a side note, since becoming so intimately aware of motion judder in trying to learn the best way to shoot with my hd100 I have noticed instances of judder in moving shots from several high budget features of the last year (for example pan's labyrinth and the painted veil). the hvx200 deals with motion a hell of a lot better, but the hd100 kicks its ass in resolution good luck

February 20th, 2007, 01:32 PM	#21
Ben Chace Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brooklyn, United States Posts: 60	the judder is partly the result of the hdv coding.. since only one in 6 frames is fully coded with the jvc as opposed to all 6 with the hvx (in dvcprohd) the result is sometimes the added judder... exacerbated when shooting 24p. the so-called super encoder that comes with the hd200 and 250 is supposed to minimise this effect..