Matte boxes

Michael Maier · August 9th, 2006, 12:13 PM

I don't think Tim was talking about light leaking through the front of the shade where the eyebrow and siders would go. He was talking about leaking through the filter trays I guess. Does the Formatt leak that way? I don't remember it doing it when I messed with one. It felt pretty well built, specially considering the price. Not Arri for sure, but then again it's about 1/8 of the price.

Jack Walker · August 9th, 2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

I don't think Tim was talking about light leaking through the front of the shade where the eyebrow and siders would go. He was talking about leaking through the filter trays I guess. Does the Formatt leak that way? I don't remember it doing it when I messed with one. It felt pretty well built, specially considering the price. Not Arri for sure, but then again it's about 1/8 of the price.

From the DV.COM review of the Formatt Matte Box:

"There's a hinged cover over the filter stages that prevents light from above from entering the filter stages and causing reflections or flare. The hinged cover is one of the nice touches representative of the care and thought that went into the design of this matte box."

Here's a link to the review:
http://dv.com/news/news_item.jhtml?L...ew/goodman0507

(If not registered at dv.com, you may have to register and login for this link to work.)]

This matte box seems to be the best of the low cost options. It costs $350 at B&H and the adapter ring for the HD100 is $35 (Adorma--probably available at B&H, but I couldn't find it). B&H has the box in a kit with 3 filters, but the kit doesn't include the 82mm adapter; it includes a 58mm and a 72mm adapter.

Tim Brown · August 9th, 2006, 12:36 PM

The hinged cover does block light from entering from the top but you could get a light leak from the side in certain circumstances, although highly unlikely. And I concur with Michael in that the Formatt boxes are well built and when I had trouble with mine, Formatt was very attentive and responsive and sent me replacement parts without question.

Hope this helps.

Almost forgot, quick plug for ZGC. They were very helpful in my search for Formatt filters--which are tip-top notch--and mounting hardware for the FM-500.

Tim Le · August 9th, 2006, 01:28 PM

I agree the Formatt is one of the better low-cost options. Instead of gaffer's tape you might want to try a black scrunchy that girls use to tie their hair into a ponytail.

The higher-end matte boxes like from Arri, are specifically designed to prevent light leaks. The matte box housing is large enough to totally cover the filter holder (which in turn totally encloses the glass filter) regardless of how the filter holder is rotated. There is also a rubber "donut" that seals the back of the filter trays to the lens barrel. Obviously all of this cost money but hopefully some people now understand that matte boxes are more than just a "plastic box" at bloated prices.

AFAIK the matte boxes that don't have rotating filter trays are the indiesnap, Cinetactics and Hyson. The Geardear has limited rotation but that thing is made from foam PVC--yikes!

Eric Darling · August 11th, 2006, 02:46 PM

I'm interested in the Chrosziel, but the mount concerns me. I have the four-screw v-mount adapter plate on the camera, which replaced the standard single-screw mount. Is there an easy way to mount using this configuration to any of the matte boxes discussed in this thread?

Gerhard Hirsch · August 13th, 2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim N Le

AFAIK the matte boxes that don't have rotating filter trays are the indiesnap, Cinetactics and Hyson. The Geardear has limited rotation but that thing is made from foam PVC--yikes!

Hi Tim,
just to clarify things: the 4x4" 3sixtystage has it´s name from the unlimited rotation, you can turn your filter 360°. Maybe you have seen the picture of the 4x5.56", it´s only rotating 40°, because the rods are in the way...
I´m sorry, that you haven´t got your hands on our Geardear mattebox. Otherwise you would love this "foamed PVC", because it is unbelievable lightweight in conjunction with a stability coming close to metal. Maybe a second opinion helps http://www.redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2191 And it is definetely steady enough to fix the filters in front of the lens. And don´t forget that it´s the only one which is really modular, you can have different filterstages for different needs combined and changed fast. Even the ARRIs can´t do it...
Hope you can make own experiences with our mattebox soon,
best wishes from Germany

Gerhard

PS: If you can afford an ARRI mattebox, then buy it, it will be always worth the money. But with the expensive others, it´s a different game...

David Ziegelheim · August 13th, 2006, 10:30 AM

Gerhard,

What height adjustment from the rods do you have? Do you have top and side flags (a top flag is shown in a picture but otherwise not mentioned on your site)? What is the field of view, especially with the masks? Does filter size affect the field of view? How does using a 3x3 filter affect the field of view? Can a 3x3 be used in a '3sixty' tray?

Thanks,

David

Gerhard Hirsch · August 13th, 2006, 11:42 AM

Hi David,many questions for a sunday evening;-)

- What height adjustment from the rods do you have?

There is a picture on our website http://www.geardear.com/adjust.html which makes it clear, how it is done. Unscrew the two screws and you can raise or lower the mattebox to the needed height, around one inch from standard height.

- Do you have top and side flags (a top flag is shown in a picture but otherwise not mentioned on your site)?

The top is called "french flag", it´s on the wishlist, but didn´t make to an explanation inside. I think, it´s selfexplaining...
Side flags are in developement... All pieces are always exchangeable. So if someone has an "older" Geardear mattebox can upgrade later to all what´s coming (for example the side flags). But we are on market only since eight weeks, not everything can be developed at once. You have to start with something... Even the height adjustment came later, because the people demanded it. And they exchanged some static filterstages to adjustable ones, the rest was useable, because it´s modular...

- What is the field of view, especially with the masks?

That´s a really difficult answer, if you want it in focus length. It varies from system to system: even with different adapters it´s different, the "negative" of the M2 is bigger than "Mini35" for example. In angle it´s easy: with 2 filterstages and the "4shade" you get around 80 degrees, with the "2shade" you get 100°. I have never measured the angle of view with the masks.

- Does filter size affect the field of view?

Yes, as always. The first two filterstages can be 4x4" until 20mm for 36x24mm "negative", for the third you need then 4x565" filters. It´s the same with every mattebox, if the filter is not close to the lens - and obviously the third filter can´t be close to the lens.

- How does using a 3x3 filter affect the field of view?

With the new cameras it makes sense to upgrade to 4x4" filters. The lensdiameters are always to close to the 75x75mm of the filter, you get vignetting very easyly.

Can a 3x3 be used in a '3sixty' tray?

There is no "3sixtytray3x3" yet, but if you want one, we can develop one for you in no time. But you have to consider that 3x3 rotated to 45° means your filtersize reduces to around 65mmx40mm on 16to9. You can´t go wide with your 72mm or 82mm thread lens...

Hope this helps...

Gerhard

Brian Wells · August 14th, 2006, 10:48 PM

The only real problem I encountered with the Formatt was that it didn't work with any add on lenses on the DVX100... no wide angle or telephoto lens. That was a deal breaker for me. Otherwise it appeared functional, but way too large what it does. A used clip-on Chrosziel matte box only costs a few hundred more than a new Formatt and is a much more useful bit of kit.. I went with a new Vocas and have been very pleased with it. Works great. No problems whatsoever. It is extremely durable.

David Lester Mooney · March 11th, 2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

I completely agree with Steve. Buy a cheap matte box and you'll throw away those few hundreds of dollars. $2000 for a Chrosziel and a couple of filters might seem like a lo of money but a matte box is the one tools that can improve the look of your pictures dramatically. What we do is based on controlling the light, a good matte box allows you to do exactly that, control flare, light end use filters.
We can argue about overpriced gear until we get old but the fact is, there are no cheap alternatives. If it's not Chrosziel it's Petroff. They both sell for $1700-$1900 for an HD100. Tomorrow you buy another camera, you change the adapter ring and off you go. Spend $1900 today, take better pictures for the rest of your life.

Where can I get one of these matte boxes, I've been on the Tiffen site but can you even buy stuff on it? If you could tell me where i can get a matte box and some Tiffen's i'd be most gratefull.

Regards.

Brian Drysdale · March 11th, 2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lester Mooney

Where can I get one of these matte boxes, I've been on the Tiffen site but can you even buy stuff on it? If you could tell me where i can get a matte box and some Tiffen's i'd be most gratefull.

Regards.

Try the South London Filters http://www.camerafilters.co.uk/

Abel CineTech sell them, but international sales need to be set up.

B & H Photo do international sales. http://www.bhphotovideo.com

You could check with Digirent in Dublin, they're part of Visual Impact.
http://www.visuals.co.uk/digirent/

Panavision's Panastore sell Tiffen - Panavision at Ardmore Film Studios might order them for you, although they mightn't do the matte box. http://www.panavision.co.uk/

David Lester Mooney · March 12th, 2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Try the South London Filters http://www.camerafilters.co.uk/

Abel CineTech sell them, but international sales need to be set up.

B & H Photo do international sales. http://www.bhphotovideo.com

You could check with Digirent in Dublin, they're part of Visual Impact.
http://www.visuals.co.uk/digirent/

Panavision's Panastore sell Tiffen - Panavision at Ardmore Film Studios might order them for you, although they mightn't do the matte box. http://www.panavision.co.uk/

Thanks Bryan,

Much apreciated

Bill Ravens · March 12th, 2007, 09:12 AM

FWIW...

I have Cavision 4x4 bellows mattebox with french flags. The setup is perfectly adequate for use with my HD110, I can't think of any complaints with the setup, whatsoever. I added a redrock Micro follow focus unit and the setup works very well for me. I will add the following comments, based on what people have previously written in this thread:

1- I do not use a focus puller. Nevertheless, despite the deep DOF, focus on the HD110 is extremely critical in the HDV mode. The deep DOF makes it considerably more difficult to find focus. If you don't set the focus correctly, you won't see it until you try to view your "production", then you'll cringe. A good follow focus unit is very helpful in maintaining proper focus on this camera. Without the follow focus, the jarring and jitter you introduce onto your captured footage is unprofessional and extremely distracting.

2-The stock 16x fujinon lens on the HD100/110 is manufactured with a plastic lens barrel surrounding the first optical element. The Cavision mattbox attaches to the front of the lens via a screw-on metal adapter ring and the mattbox clamps to this ring via a c-clamp incorporated in the mattebox. Securing the clamp causes the plastic lens barrel to distort sufficiently to lock up the focus ring on the 16x lens. NOT a good situation.

Gareth Watkins · March 12th, 2007, 09:13 AM

Hi Denis

Try www.prokit.co.uk in London... Very professional shop. I live in France and they ship to me no problem.

Has TLS and Chroziel I believe...plus Tiffen filters.

Regards
Gareth

PS: hope Chris doesn't mind the link as it's not in the US.

Drew Curran · March 12th, 2007, 09:19 AM

www.cinevate.com do matte boxes

Maybe this has been mentioned already. Sorry if if has.

Andrew

March 12th, 2007, 09:19 AM	#45
Drew Curran Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: N. Ireland Posts: 370	www.cinevate.com do matte boxes Maybe this has been mentioned already. Sorry if if has. Andrew __________________ Pixol www.pixol.co www.facebook.com/pixolmedia www.twitter.com/pixolmedia

August 9th, 2006, 12:13 PM	#31
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	I don't think Tim was talking about light leaking through the front of the shade where the eyebrow and siders would go. He was talking about leaking through the filter trays I guess. Does the Formatt leak that way? I don't remember it doing it when I messed with one. It felt pretty well built, specially considering the price. Not Arri for sure, but then again it's about 1/8 of the price.

August 9th, 2006, 12:36 PM	#33
Tim Brown Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 263	The hinged cover does block light from entering from the top but you could get a light leak from the side in certain circumstances, although highly unlikely. And I concur with Michael in that the Formatt boxes are well built and when I had trouble with mine, Formatt was very attentive and responsive and sent me replacement parts without question. Hope this helps. Almost forgot, quick plug for ZGC. They were very helpful in my search for Formatt filters--which are tip-top notch--and mounting hardware for the FM-500.

August 9th, 2006, 01:28 PM	#34
Tim Le Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 350	I agree the Formatt is one of the better low-cost options. Instead of gaffer's tape you might want to try a black scrunchy that girls use to tie their hair into a ponytail. The higher-end matte boxes like from Arri, are specifically designed to prevent light leaks. The matte box housing is large enough to totally cover the filter holder (which in turn totally encloses the glass filter) regardless of how the filter holder is rotated. There is also a rubber "donut" that seals the back of the filter trays to the lens barrel. Obviously all of this cost money but hopefully some people now understand that matte boxes are more than just a "plastic box" at bloated prices. AFAIK the matte boxes that don't have rotating filter trays are the indiesnap, Cinetactics and Hyson. The Geardear has limited rotation but that thing is made from foam PVC--yikes!

August 11th, 2006, 02:46 PM	#35
Eric Darling Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 463	I'm interested in the Chrosziel, but the mount concerns me. I have the four-screw v-mount adapter plate on the camera, which replaced the standard single-screw mount. Is there an easy way to mount using this configuration to any of the matte boxes discussed in this thread?

August 13th, 2006, 10:30 AM	#37
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Gerhard, What height adjustment from the rods do you have? Do you have top and side flags (a top flag is shown in a picture but otherwise not mentioned on your site)? What is the field of view, especially with the masks? Does filter size affect the field of view? How does using a 3x3 filter affect the field of view? Can a 3x3 be used in a '3sixty' tray? Thanks, David

August 13th, 2006, 11:42 AM	#38
Gerhard Hirsch New Boot Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 12	Hi David,many questions for a sunday evening;-) - What height adjustment from the rods do you have? There is a picture on our website http://www.geardear.com/adjust.html which makes it clear, how it is done. Unscrew the two screws and you can raise or lower the mattebox to the needed height, around one inch from standard height. - Do you have top and side flags (a top flag is shown in a picture but otherwise not mentioned on your site)? The top is called "french flag", it´s on the wishlist, but didn´t make to an explanation inside. I think, it´s selfexplaining... Side flags are in developement... All pieces are always exchangeable. So if someone has an "older" Geardear mattebox can upgrade later to all what´s coming (for example the side flags). But we are on market only since eight weeks, not everything can be developed at once. You have to start with something... Even the height adjustment came later, because the people demanded it. And they exchanged some static filterstages to adjustable ones, the rest was useable, because it´s modular... - What is the field of view, especially with the masks? That´s a really difficult answer, if you want it in focus length. It varies from system to system: even with different adapters it´s different, the "negative" of the M2 is bigger than "Mini35" for example. In angle it´s easy: with 2 filterstages and the "4shade" you get around 80 degrees, with the "2shade" you get 100°. I have never measured the angle of view with the masks. - Does filter size affect the field of view? Yes, as always. The first two filterstages can be 4x4" until 20mm for 36x24mm "negative", for the third you need then 4x565" filters. It´s the same with every mattebox, if the filter is not close to the lens - and obviously the third filter can´t be close to the lens. - How does using a 3x3 filter affect the field of view? With the new cameras it makes sense to upgrade to 4x4" filters. The lensdiameters are always to close to the 75x75mm of the filter, you get vignetting very easyly. Can a 3x3 be used in a '3sixty' tray? There is no "3sixtytray3x3" yet, but if you want one, we can develop one for you in no time. But you have to consider that 3x3 rotated to 45° means your filtersize reduces to around 65mmx40mm on 16to9. You can´t go wide with your 72mm or 82mm thread lens... Hope this helps... Gerhard

August 14th, 2006, 10:48 PM	#39
Brian Wells Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 143	The only real problem I encountered with the Formatt was that it didn't work with any add on lenses on the DVX100... no wide angle or telephoto lens. That was a deal breaker for me. Otherwise it appeared functional, but way too large what it does. A used clip-on Chrosziel matte box only costs a few hundred more than a new Formatt and is a much more useful bit of kit.. I went with a new Vocas and have been very pleased with it. Works great. No problems whatsoever. It is extremely durable.

March 12th, 2007, 09:12 AM	#43
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	FWIW... I have Cavision 4x4 bellows mattebox with french flags. The setup is perfectly adequate for use with my HD110, I can't think of any complaints with the setup, whatsoever. I added a redrock Micro follow focus unit and the setup works very well for me. I will add the following comments, based on what people have previously written in this thread: 1- I do not use a focus puller. Nevertheless, despite the deep DOF, focus on the HD110 is extremely critical in the HDV mode. The deep DOF makes it considerably more difficult to find focus. If you don't set the focus correctly, you won't see it until you try to view your "production", then you'll cringe. A good follow focus unit is very helpful in maintaining proper focus on this camera. Without the follow focus, the jarring and jitter you introduce onto your captured footage is unprofessional and extremely distracting. 2-The stock 16x fujinon lens on the HD100/110 is manufactured with a plastic lens barrel surrounding the first optical element. The Cavision mattbox attaches to the front of the lens via a screw-on metal adapter ring and the mattbox clamps to this ring via a c-clamp incorporated in the mattebox. Securing the clamp causes the plastic lens barrel to distort sufficiently to lock up the focus ring on the 16x lens. NOT a good situation.

March 12th, 2007, 09:13 AM	#44
Gareth Watkins Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: France Posts: 578	Hi Denis Try www.prokit.co.uk in London... Very professional shop. I live in France and they ship to me no problem. Has TLS and Chroziel I believe...plus Tiffen filters. Regards Gareth PS: hope Chris doesn't mind the link as it's not in the US.