HD100E 24p shooting in UK at DVinfo.net

David Cubbage · July 14th, 2006, 02:55 AM

We are shooting a short drama here in the UK during August and September and would like to shoot in 720 24p. However to shoot in 24p we have to have the camera set at 60Hrtz mode. My question is, does anyone know if this will give us a flicker problem when using lighting which is at 50Hrtz? We will be using Kino's and Dedo's for interior shots.
We shot a short last year in 720 25p but because of no support for this in FCP I had to convert to 1080i from the JVC deck and convert to 1080i DVCpro HD via my Kona card to enable us to edit. I ended up with an interlaced project when I would have prefered progressive. This is why I would like to shoot our next project in 24p as the footage set to Paolo's settings, looks absolutly fantastic at this framerate.
I have waited very patiently for Apple to support this fantastic camera at the European frame rates but can no longer rely on rumours of support in FCP6 "soon" for our up and coming project. I am even considering going the PC and Cineform route which for an avid Mac lover, I own 3, is a huge two fingers at Apple for their lack of customer consideration regarding this issue.

Brian Drysdale · July 14th, 2006, 03:11 AM

You'll be fine with Kinoflos and Dedo lights at 24P. If you're shooting with standard fluorescent lights you'll need to be either shooting at 25p or have a suitable shutter speed eg 1/100th of a second, otherwise you'll get flicker. Also, you'll need 25P if you're filming a TV set.

An unusual reversal, in Europe people mostly shoot at 25p because of the ease of post production because most of the facilities are set up for PAL.

Antony Michael Wilson · July 14th, 2006, 03:36 AM

Not to mention the fact that you'll have to speed up your footage for playback in PAL. I'd go for 25P every time when shooting in the UK principally for UK/European distribution and exhibition. You'll also find that post production is simpler and cheaper. Paolo's settings will look just as good at 25P and there isn't any better FCP support for 24fps HDV1 than 25.

Tim Dashwood · July 14th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Flicker will be caused by the shutter. The shutter off default position in 24P mode is 1/48th. You would assume this would be the same as shooting a film camera at 24fps with a 180degree shutter, except that I have seen some flicker/colour cycle issues at 1/48th with 50Hz flourescent sources.

Your best bet is to set the shutter to VARIABLE and key in 1/50th shutter. This will guarantee compatibility with 50Hz KinoFlos.

Tim Dashwood · July 14th, 2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Cubbage

I have waited very patiently for Apple to support this fantastic camera at the European frame rates but can no longer rely on rumours of support in FCP6 "soon" for our up and coming project. I am even considering going the PC and Cineform route which for an avid Mac lover, I own 3, is a huge two fingers at Apple for their lack of customer consideration regarding this issue.

We have all waited patiently, but I think there is more to the story than just Apple not releasing the update.
They had it running at NAB in April - full 720P24 capture/edit support in FCP5.1, yet it still hasn't been publicly released. It seemed to work well when I played with it on the demo Macbook Pro, but I wonder why they haven't released it yet? It was explained to me by an Apple rep there that they "hacked" the 720P30 preset to create the 720P24 one. Maybe they encountered some bugs and aren't comfortable releasing the update yet?

Anyway, you are not the only one who has considered the alternatives. The producers of the last film I shot decided to go the Cineform/PP2 route, but almost instantly hit a brick wall with syncing double-system sound. The last I spoke to the editor he wasn't sure if he has captured correct TC either via Cineform. TC is important because it was synced with the sound files.

David Cubbage · July 14th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Thanks everyone for your quick response; I am a keen reader of this forum, especially regarding the HD100. I am learning a great deal from you all. I am eternally grateful for Paolo's wonderful work on the HD100's settings; it has improved the output of this camera way beyond anything I thought possible.

I take on board what you all say regarding 25p; it does make a lot of sense to shoot at this framerate in the UK. It just gets a little frustrating the trouble you have to go to to get it into the timeline. I am a film maker first and trying to get to grips with HDV technology is a little daunting when you are working with tiny budgets. Sometimes the technical side gets in the way of the act of film making because I am always trying to get the very best from what I can afford.

When I was looking for a camera to give me a good level of quality for my limited budget; I was blown away by what this camera could do. I have built up my kit around it and consider myself very lucky to own most of the kit I now use. It gives me a great deal of flexibility on shooting schedules when you don't have to hire.

I guess I have to be a bit more patient and hope that Apple will come up with support for 720 25p sooner than later.

Tim, it is very interesting to hear what you say regarding Cineform and PP2; I considered changing my set up because of the good things I have heard about the Cineform codec being lossless and reading the blog on the Spoon project in the early days when they were testing the HD100/Mini35 combination. I know they were going component out to the Waffian hard disc recorder and not direct to tape but they were very impressed with the Cineform codec. If this was a codec supported on the Mac I would be a very happy chappy.

To sum up, I am not very bright where the techno side of things are concerned and my inexperience with codecs and formats leave me open to buying equipment and software that does not live up to the hype. I have supported this camera 100% from day one and still believe it is one of the best cameras for the money. At the end of the day I want to shoot footage, capture, edit and output to get my work seen by a wider audience but at the moment I am bogged down with trying to get a practical workflow to try and get out as near to the quality I put in.

July 14th, 2006, 02:55 AM	#1
David Cubbage New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9	HD100E 24p shooting in UK We are shooting a short drama here in the UK during August and September and would like to shoot in 720 24p. However to shoot in 24p we have to have the camera set at 60Hrtz mode. My question is, does anyone know if this will give us a flicker problem when using lighting which is at 50Hrtz? We will be using Kino's and Dedo's for interior shots. We shot a short last year in 720 25p but because of no support for this in FCP I had to convert to 1080i from the JVC deck and convert to 1080i DVCpro HD via my Kona card to enable us to edit. I ended up with an interlaced project when I would have prefered progressive. This is why I would like to shoot our next project in 24p as the footage set to Paolo's settings, looks absolutly fantastic at this framerate. I have waited very patiently for Apple to support this fantastic camera at the European frame rates but can no longer rely on rumours of support in FCP6 "soon" for our up and coming project. I am even considering going the PC and Cineform route which for an avid Mac lover, I own 3, is a huge two fingers at Apple for their lack of customer consideration regarding this issue.

July 14th, 2006, 07:46 AM	#4
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Flicker will be caused by the shutter. The shutter off default position in 24P mode is 1/48th. You would assume this would be the same as shooting a film camera at 24fps with a 180degree shutter, except that I have seen some flicker/colour cycle issues at 1/48th with 50Hz flourescent sources. Your best bet is to set the shutter to VARIABLE and key in 1/50th shutter. This will guarantee compatibility with 50Hz KinoFlos. __________________ Tim Dashwood

July 14th, 2006, 03:11 AM	#2
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	You'll be fine with Kinoflos and Dedo lights at 24P. If you're shooting with standard fluorescent lights you'll need to be either shooting at 25p or have a suitable shutter speed eg 1/100th of a second, otherwise you'll get flicker. Also, you'll need 25P if you're filming a TV set. An unusual reversal, in Europe people mostly shoot at 25p because of the ease of post production because most of the facilities are set up for PAL.

July 14th, 2006, 03:36 AM	#3
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Not to mention the fact that you'll have to speed up your footage for playback in PAL. I'd go for 25P every time when shooting in the UK principally for UK/European distribution and exhibition. You'll also find that post production is simpler and cheaper. Paolo's settings will look just as good at 25P and there isn't any better FCP support for 24fps HDV1 than 25.

July 14th, 2006, 09:48 AM	#6
David Cubbage New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9	Thanks everyone for your quick response; I am a keen reader of this forum, especially regarding the HD100. I am learning a great deal from you all. I am eternally grateful for Paolo's wonderful work on the HD100's settings; it has improved the output of this camera way beyond anything I thought possible. I take on board what you all say regarding 25p; it does make a lot of sense to shoot at this framerate in the UK. It just gets a little frustrating the trouble you have to go to to get it into the timeline. I am a film maker first and trying to get to grips with HDV technology is a little daunting when you are working with tiny budgets. Sometimes the technical side gets in the way of the act of film making because I am always trying to get the very best from what I can afford. When I was looking for a camera to give me a good level of quality for my limited budget; I was blown away by what this camera could do. I have built up my kit around it and consider myself very lucky to own most of the kit I now use. It gives me a great deal of flexibility on shooting schedules when you don't have to hire. I guess I have to be a bit more patient and hope that Apple will come up with support for 720 25p sooner than later. Tim, it is very interesting to hear what you say regarding Cineform and PP2; I considered changing my set up because of the good things I have heard about the Cineform codec being lossless and reading the blog on the Spoon project in the early days when they were testing the HD100/Mini35 combination. I know they were going component out to the Waffian hard disc recorder and not direct to tape but they were very impressed with the Cineform codec. If this was a codec supported on the Mac I would be a very happy chappy. To sum up, I am not very bright where the techno side of things are concerned and my inexperience with codecs and formats leave me open to buying equipment and software that does not live up to the hype. I have supported this camera 100% from day one and still believe it is one of the best cameras for the money. At the end of the day I want to shoot footage, capture, edit and output to get my work seen by a wider audience but at the moment I am bogged down with trying to get a practical workflow to try and get out as near to the quality I put in.