HDV with SDI at DVinfo.net

Joe Pitts · July 5th, 2006, 06:33 AM

is there any talk of making a hdv deck w hd-sdi I/O?? this would make it perfect for adding to production workflows
thx
joe

Ken Freed JVC · July 5th, 2006, 07:15 AM

Joe, not as you stated. There are two things to having HDV with HD-SDI not one. You need the HD-SDI conversion and you also must provide the MPEG2 encode/decode.

We likely will address this with the SA-HD50 codec. This is the same size and shape as the BR-HD50 but it has no tape slot. It is literally a box of mathmatics. We think it will be available about November for about $8K. This will allow you to use the BR and SA to record HDV from HD-SDI and vice versa and also provide analog HD component I/O for a total of $11,400 or so. Very affordable for an MPEG codec.

You willl see these pairs on broadcast trucks recording 4.5 hours of HDV from an HD pool feed. It also allows for switching the live HDV camcorders and then recording direct to HDV from analog component.

Scott Cantrell · July 5th, 2006, 10:58 AM

Joe,

Miranda offers a decoder you may be interested in:

Miranda’s HD-Bridge DEC+ is a high quality HDV (MPEG2) decoder interface with multiple output formats for news gathering, recording, monitoring, and on-air playout. HD-Bridge Dec+ features two HDV IEEE-1394 ports (iLink, Firewire), an ASI input, and a Genlock reference input.
Dual digital video outputs provide either HD-SDI or SDI with embedded audio and Time Code. One output is a clean feed, and the other features Time Code burn-in and aspect ratio markers. The interface also provides composite, SD/HD component video, AES and analog audio, and LTC outputs.

A RS422 port is available for VTR control, and a built-in cross converter allows 1080i / 720p HD cross-conversion. The interface can also perform 720p23.98 HDV to 1080PsF23.98 HD-SDI conversion for high-end 24p production, and there is also a 1080i/720p HD to SD downconverter.

Scott Cantrell
TapeWorks Texas Inc - HDVinfo Sponser
scott@tapeworkstexas.com
866-827-3489

Antony Michael Wilson · July 5th, 2006, 11:04 AM

You should also look at the Convergent Design HD Connect LE. It's very good, quite a lot cheaper than the Miranda and better than the Miranda IMHO.

http://www.convergent-design.com

I think what we all really want to see, Ken, is a deck that can playback (at least) HDV1 and HDV2 with SD/HD SDI and component I/O, with RS422 and built in downconvert to SD. It would make a lot of facility houses very happy.

Remember when DV was new? They told us there wouldn't be SDI-equipped studio decks and we had to use DV to SDI + RS422 converters to work with high-end post kit. I remember hearing all sorts of protestations that DV was a consumer medium, not for broadcast and what were we trying to do finishing from DV source media anyway!!! I'm sure SDI-equipped HDV decks of some sort will appear in some form or another, as soon as broadcasters and manufacturers stop trying to keep HD as a high-budget premium product medium. Studio VTRs will be here one day and we'll wonder why we spent all that money on converters back in 2006!!!!

Joe Pitts · July 6th, 2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

I think what we all really want to see, Ken, is a deck that can playback (at least) HDV1 and HDV2 with SD/HD SDI and component I/O, with RS422 and built in downconvert to SD. It would make a lot of facility houses very happy.

Keep the DV in there too....

Quote:

Remember when DV was new? They told us there wouldn't be SDI-equipped studio decks and we had to use DV to SDI + RS422 converters to work with high-end post kit. I remember hearing all sorts of protestations that DV was a consumer medium, not for broadcast and what were we trying to do finishing from DV source media anyway!!! I'm sure SDI-equipped HDV decks of some sort will appear in some form or another, as soon as broadcasters and manufacturers stop trying to keep HD as a high-budget premium product medium. Studio VTRs will be here one day and we'll wonder why we spent all that money on converters back in 2006!!!!

This man understands....as much as i would love to use the firewire out, in does limit any type of legalizing or ingest into a full production/post type workflow. what should i do, use the HD Component out into a converter, but that would just add noise...I'm dying here folks!, and I think a solution should be a little cheaper than 11 grand! I'm not interested in going back to tape, everythings going to disc or archive!
Thanks
joe

Antony Michael Wilson · July 6th, 2006, 09:14 AM

Hi Joe

For ingest, I'd use the Miranda or HD Connect LE with either the BRHD50 or the camera itself so that you can convert HDV to SDI. I agree that the D to A conversion is not great and you would not have this problem with either converter.

I'm not sure I understand what format you need to output to.

Carl Hicks · July 6th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Going from HDV over firewire to HD-SDI (MPEG decoding)is relatively easy - there are products mentined on this thread that do it with reasonable cost.

Going from HD-SDI or HD component analog to HDV (MPEG encoding) is much harder, and therefore more expensive.

The product Ken mentioned earlier, the SA-HD50U, will do both encoding and decoding, input from firewire HDV, HD-SDI, or component, and output to firewire HDV, HD-SDI, or component. Paired up with the existing BR-HD50U VTR, this combo will offer very affordable record and playback of all popular HD signals.

Antony Michael Wilson · July 6th, 2006, 11:35 AM

Yes, I'm not sure why many of us would actually want to OUTPUT from HD SDI to HDV. The purpose of those converters is to bump us up to broadcast signal domains for high-level finishing. It seems a little crazy to do all that with all the other equipment expense involved and then master an edit back down to HDV.

Having said that, in the past we have had corporate cients who wanted their programmes back on DVCAM as well for playback in their in-house desktop set-ups, so we would simply dub the DigiBeta masters to DVCAM via SDI. In this kind of scenario HD SDI input would make some sense for HDV.

Steve Oakley · July 6th, 2006, 09:17 PM

I'm perfectly happy to bring HDV in via FW. Converting to HD-SDI has little to benifit, unless there is going to be some chroma smoothing and other image processing to make SDI out of the deck worth while... that said, it kills me that there is no SDI IN on the VTRs. The current problem is the dreaded conforming GOP thing the NLE's currently do to output back via FW. FCP is perfectly happy to PB in realtime HDV to SDI. If the deck took SDI IN, I would have RT back to tape. At NAB I looked everywhere for a SDI->HDV FW converter, and it just wasn't there.

AFA $11k for the uber IO box... the price is just too far out there by a factor of about 3 to consider it.

Steve Oakley

Edwin Beeler · July 10th, 2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

You should also look at the Convergent Design HD Connect LE. It's very good, quite a lot cheaper than the Miranda and better than the Miranda IMHO.

http://www.convergent-design.com

I think what we all really want to see, Ken, is a deck that can playback (at least) HDV1 and HDV2 with SD/HD SDI and component I/O, with RS422 and built in downconvert to SD. It would make a lot of facility houses very happy.

Remember when DV was new? They told us there wouldn't be SDI-equipped studio decks and we had to use DV to SDI + RS422 converters to work with high-end post kit. I remember hearing all sorts of protestations that DV was a consumer medium, not for broadcast and what were we trying to do finishing from DV source media anyway!!! I'm sure SDI-equipped HDV decks of some sort will appear in some form or another, as soon as broadcasters and manufacturers stop trying to keep HD as a high-budget premium product medium. Studio VTRs will be here one day and we'll wonder why we spent all that money on converters back in 2006!!!!

Sony showed it's new recorder/player HVR-M25U, of course recording/playing in DV, DVCAM and HDV 1080i50 but also playing back 720p30. Don't know if 720p25/24 is possible:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...amilybroch.pdf
Thank you

July 5th, 2006, 06:33 AM	#1
Joe Pitts New Boot Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cheaspeake, VA Posts: 12	HDV with SDI is there any talk of making a hdv deck w hd-sdi I/O?? this would make it perfect for adding to production workflows thx joe

July 5th, 2006, 07:15 AM	#2
Ken Freed JVC JVC Regional Sales Engineer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wayne, NJ Posts: 49	Joe, not as you stated. There are two things to having HDV with HD-SDI not one. You need the HD-SDI conversion and you also must provide the MPEG2 encode/decode. We likely will address this with the SA-HD50 codec. This is the same size and shape as the BR-HD50 but it has no tape slot. It is literally a box of mathmatics. We think it will be available about November for about $8K. This will allow you to use the BR and SA to record HDV from HD-SDI and vice versa and also provide analog HD component I/O for a total of $11,400 or so. Very affordable for an MPEG codec. You willl see these pairs on broadcast trucks recording 4.5 hours of HDV from an HD pool feed. It also allows for switching the live HDV camcorders and then recording direct to HDV from analog component. __________________ Ken Freed JVC Mid-Atlantic District Sales Manager (201) 637-7706 kfreed@jvc.com

July 6th, 2006, 09:48 AM	#7
Carl Hicks JVC America Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 516	HD-SDI / HDV record / playback solution Going from HDV over firewire to HD-SDI (MPEG decoding)is relatively easy - there are products mentined on this thread that do it with reasonable cost. Going from HD-SDI or HD component analog to HDV (MPEG encoding) is much harder, and therefore more expensive. The product Ken mentioned earlier, the SA-HD50U, will do both encoding and decoding, input from firewire HDV, HD-SDI, or component, and output to firewire HDV, HD-SDI, or component. Paired up with the existing BR-HD50U VTR, this combo will offer very affordable record and playback of all popular HD signals. __________________ Carl Hicks JVC Professional Products Company

July 5th, 2006, 10:58 AM	#3
Scott Cantrell Sponsor: TapeWorks Texas Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 357	Joe, Miranda offers a decoder you may be interested in: Miranda’s HD-Bridge DEC+ is a high quality HDV (MPEG2) decoder interface with multiple output formats for news gathering, recording, monitoring, and on-air playout. HD-Bridge Dec+ features two HDV IEEE-1394 ports (iLink, Firewire), an ASI input, and a Genlock reference input. Dual digital video outputs provide either HD-SDI or SDI with embedded audio and Time Code. One output is a clean feed, and the other features Time Code burn-in and aspect ratio markers. The interface also provides composite, SD/HD component video, AES and analog audio, and LTC outputs. A RS422 port is available for VTR control, and a built-in cross converter allows 1080i / 720p HD cross-conversion. The interface can also perform 720p23.98 HDV to 1080PsF23.98 HD-SDI conversion for high-end 24p production, and there is also a 1080i/720p HD to SD downconverter. Scott Cantrell TapeWorks Texas Inc - HDVinfo Sponser scott@tapeworkstexas.com 866-827-3489

July 5th, 2006, 11:04 AM	#4
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	You should also look at the Convergent Design HD Connect LE. It's very good, quite a lot cheaper than the Miranda and better than the Miranda IMHO. http://www.convergent-design.com I think what we all really want to see, Ken, is a deck that can playback (at least) HDV1 and HDV2 with SD/HD SDI and component I/O, with RS422 and built in downconvert to SD. It would make a lot of facility houses very happy. Remember when DV was new? They told us there wouldn't be SDI-equipped studio decks and we had to use DV to SDI + RS422 converters to work with high-end post kit. I remember hearing all sorts of protestations that DV was a consumer medium, not for broadcast and what were we trying to do finishing from DV source media anyway!!! I'm sure SDI-equipped HDV decks of some sort will appear in some form or another, as soon as broadcasters and manufacturers stop trying to keep HD as a high-budget premium product medium. Studio VTRs will be here one day and we'll wonder why we spent all that money on converters back in 2006!!!!

July 6th, 2006, 09:14 AM	#6
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Hi Joe For ingest, I'd use the Miranda or HD Connect LE with either the BRHD50 or the camera itself so that you can convert HDV to SDI. I agree that the D to A conversion is not great and you would not have this problem with either converter. I'm not sure I understand what format you need to output to.

July 6th, 2006, 11:35 AM	#8
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Yes, I'm not sure why many of us would actually want to OUTPUT from HD SDI to HDV. The purpose of those converters is to bump us up to broadcast signal domains for high-level finishing. It seems a little crazy to do all that with all the other equipment expense involved and then master an edit back down to HDV. Having said that, in the past we have had corporate cients who wanted their programmes back on DVCAM as well for playback in their in-house desktop set-ups, so we would simply dub the DigiBeta masters to DVCAM via SDI. In this kind of scenario HD SDI input would make some sense for HDV.

July 6th, 2006, 09:17 PM	#9
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	I'm perfectly happy to bring HDV in via FW. Converting to HD-SDI has little to benifit, unless there is going to be some chroma smoothing and other image processing to make SDI out of the deck worth while... that said, it kills me that there is no SDI IN on the VTRs. The current problem is the dreaded conforming GOP thing the NLE's currently do to output back via FW. FCP is perfectly happy to PB in realtime HDV to SDI. If the deck took SDI IN, I would have RT back to tape. At NAB I looked everywhere for a SDI->HDV FW converter, and it just wasn't there. AFA $11k for the uber IO box... the price is just too far out there by a factor of about 3 to consider it. Steve Oakley