Tape dropouts -- please help!

Stephen L. Noe · July 2nd, 2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Wallin

Been using the Panasonic tape stock since 2001 and only had drop out on one tape. Now if you are talking about shooting HDV I can not say as that is fairly new but I had not heard what you commented about until I saw your post.

I, like Chad, had been bitten hard by Panasonic Master Q tapes in a JVC camera. AAMOF, I couldn't believe my eyes and though it was a fluke. Then I tested, and certainly Panasonic Master Q tapes cause dropout in an HD-100. Somehow there is incompatability, in my experience.

Jack Walker · July 2nd, 2006, 06:40 PM

Here is the answer from the JVC HD100 FAQ:
+++++++++++++++++
What media can be used with ProHD?

Current ProHD models are designed to record on conventional MiniDV and full size DV (deck only). JVC offers premium grade ProHD media (M-DV63ProHD) for mission critical use.
+++++++++++++++++
It doesn't say JVC brand has to be used. And obviously, more expensive tapes can have characteristics and qualities that are desireable to some users in various situations.

There are differences in basic tape stock, magnetic formulations and mechanisms, and I am sure some tapes are better in and some worse in various recording mechanisms.

Dave Wallin · July 2nd, 2006, 08:32 PM

Just a follow up on the Panasonic stock - now are we talking about the AY-DVM63MQ stock or the new AY-DVM63AMQ stock that has the dropouts when shooting HDV? I have not used the new "A" series yet but if that is the one that is causing the dropout, or if it is the older stock, or if it is both - let us know.

Stephan Ahonen · July 2nd, 2006, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath

Perhaps best practice is that shown by many large broadcast organisations, who regularly and routinely reuse tape. In their case though, reuse is normally preceded by running the tape through a specialised cleaner to remove loose oxide particles etc, followed by a a laser scanner to check for damage and final bulk erasure.

I've worked for a couple TV stations and never seen anything like that... We mostly just make sure nothing's on there we want to archive and throw it into a camera bag. This is DVCPro tape, BTW.

Stephen L. Noe · July 2nd, 2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Wallin

Just a follow up on the Panasonic stock - now are we talking about the AY-DVM63MQ stock or the new AY-DVM63AMQ stock that has the dropouts when shooting HDV? I have not used the new "A" series yet but if that is the one that is causing the dropout, or if it is the older stock, or if it is both - let us know.

The Panasonic tape I'm referring to is AYDVM63MQ.

The good stuff (and cheap to boot) is JVC MDV60DU. Never had a problem yet with this tape. The tape label reads 60 minutes but the camera always reports (and records) 62 minutes per tape.

Steve Oakley · July 3rd, 2006, 12:51 AM

well a couple of things...
1. name the tape brand and some one has a disaster story to tell about it. it happens, bad tapes slip through.
2. Premium tapes come from mid roll, have better QC, and hence the price
3. in this case, it appears to be an after the fact head clog when playing back. I'd think even one more run with the head cleaner and all the D.O.'s might go away. this happens. sometimes you get a really bad clog like that where it takes a couple of passes with the head cleaner to get things good again. there is also manual cleaning, if you are so skilled and inclined.

I've been using the PQ tapes because they have worked well for me on other cameras, but I did see a couple of DO's in some HD stuff I shot a month ago, a few frames of loss, no big deal as it wasn't a ciritcal shot, and it was at the bottom of the frame. I've love to use $3 JVC tapes rather than the $5-$6 PQ's, but once you see the price of some other tape stock like HDcam, $9.50 for a premium DV tape will seem like quite the bargin

Steve Oakley

Ken Freed JVC · July 3rd, 2006, 04:43 AM

Chad, Sorry to hear of this problem, The GY-HD100 has become a very stable product, I get few calls on it and I cover half the country. I've had more than a dozen of them by now.

Ths camera should go to the Aurora, Il service center, I can give you the address if you email me at kfreed@jvc.com

Three things on this thread:
FIRST about tape:
We recommend the use of a pro tape of 63 minutes, not a consumer tape of 60 minutes.
We do not support the use of 83 minute tapes as they are so thin.
We do not require the use of JVC tape.
Sony and Panasonic and we make very good tape.
Sony and JVC tape for HDV is a better tape and it is the best tape we make for these cameras.
There are alway several people who get perfectly fine results from the cheapest tape they can find and there are some people who do not.
Some people never mix tape lubricant types. Some people do mix types and never have a problem until the day they have a problem.
Someone somewhere has had a problem with every type of tape ever made.

SECOND about reusing tapes:
What literally all of you do not know is that DV transports do not have an erase head in the mechanism. So the tape is not erased before it is recorded over. The mechanism must therefore lock on to the ITI sector and sync to the stripes already on the tape and literally do an insert of the new data to the old track.

As you can imagine, 10 micron tracks are rather small and close together. This works best with tapes recorded already on the same device, but any motion or jolt to the camera can throw it off a track so it must resynch.

I just had a call last week from a fellow who was given some DVCAM tapes to reuse. The DVCAM of course you know is wider track spacing since the tape is pulled faster so his poor camera never had a chance.

This is also why we don't support the 6 micron track pitch of the LP mode.

Just thought you might like to know.

THIRD about erase tapes:
Chris, you shouldn't take more than a couple asprin every few hours. But in fact this warning is because some people will take a bottle a day.

Same with erase tapes. I probably run them more often that anyone since I never know what people have put in my demo cameras. I sure am not going to say run a tape many times, but really 10 seconds isn't going to cause a problem.

And of course if a couple passes of a cleaning tape doesn't clear it there may be another problem.

I have seen two types of cleaning tape. There is a Panasonic I have that says hard on the shell. This is a more abrasive tape and I wouldn't use a hard type tape often.

Bob Diesso · July 3rd, 2006, 06:56 AM

JVC seems to attract more than its share of flack. Anyone reading (only) this string's headline would easily conclude an HD100 failed, destroying a production, which seems a bit unfair. In light of two pages of commentary and Mr. Terpstra's subsequent experiences, wouldn't a title like "Utterly burned by cheap tape" seem more appropriate?

Bob Diesso · July 3rd, 2006, 07:06 AM

Another string's title, "Motion Trails Galore", creates a similarly alarming HD100 impression. Reading through the string, the real culpret turned out to be an LCD panel with long refresh times.

Just an observation.

Chad Terpstra · July 3rd, 2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

I, like Chad, had been bitten hard by Panasonic Master Q tapes in a JVC camera.

Actually it was the PQ tapes I was using, not the MQ (Master) quality. http://www.tapestockonline.com/pan63minprof.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Diesso

In light of two pages of commentary and Mr. Terpstra's subsequent experiences, wouldn't a title like "Utterly burned by cheap tape" seem more appropriate?

Both the title of this thread and the other one you mention were what I was experiencing at the time of the posting. Hopefully people will follow them to their conclusion to find out the truth of the matter (especially if it’s truth they’re looking for).

The fact is I've never had a dirty head this bad and I didn't know it could happen to this extreme. Especially since the footage from the night before was great. My conclusion after running the cleaning tape twice and it still would not record a picture or sound for more than two seconds was that the camera had bit the dust and ruined the wedding. It wasn't until the 3rd try that it improved. In fact I think it wasn't until I actually scrubbed (fast forwarded and rewound while in play mode x2 or x3) that whatever it was dislodged and the camera started working again. This was the mother of all jams. And the tapes are damaged. As I’ve said, they won’t play back in other cameras and still have the minor effects I mentioned. I’m just very glad they do play.

Trust me, I’ve found and used cheaper tapes than the Panasonics without problems. As Ken and Steve O. mention, for each tape brand there’s a disaster story to be told. I could have been using the ProHD tapes (and indeed I tried when I returned home) and would have had the exact same results. The problem was on the head, but as far as I can tell it was temporary.

I do think this is a great camera and that is why I was so devastated when it appeared to be failing miserably. It’s great for weddings and a dream come true for film-makers. And now I’ve been able to record all clean footage in SD and HDV and will continue to test it out. If I can avoid a service trip before this weekend that would be great.

Thank you to everyone for helping me out in this difficult situation. What I’m going to take away from this is to check the footage DIRECTLY BEFORE you shoot. Record a minute or two the day of your shoot before you start shooting. Rewind and check it. If your head is dirty, it should show then. If not, you should be OK. Also, could I assume that any time you put in a new tape there the potential that something might settle on the head? My feeling is that this is what happened to me when I recorded the headers on each tape the night before.

Ben Freedman · July 3rd, 2006, 09:47 AM

Just an FYI:

I having been using the AY-DVM63AMQ tapes in my Z1 for several months now because they are far cheaper than the Sony DVCAM tapes.

To date, I have not experienced a single drop out. Probably shot through 40 hours of footage.

Best,

Benjamin

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.neo-fight.tv [The "Techno-Debate" Video Podcast]

Chris Hurd · July 3rd, 2006, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Diesso

Another string's title, "Motion Trails Galore", creates a similarly alarming HD100 impression. Reading through the string, the real culpret turned out to be an LCD panel with long refresh times.

Thanks for pointing this out. I have changed the title of that thread to "motion trails on LCD monitor."

Part of the reason why I started this message board, was to get away from alarmist thread titles. As the admin here, I can exercise my prerogative to edit thread titles to a much more accurate and level headed description of any particular issue.

In fact, I'm changing this one too.

Chris Hurd · July 3rd, 2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Diesso

Anyone reading (only) this string's headline would easily conclude an HD100 failed, destroying a production, which seems a bit unfair... wouldn't a title like "Utterly burned by cheap tape" seem more appropriate?

This suggestion is greatly appreciated and has been acted upon. I've changed the thread title to "Tape dropouts -- please help!" which is a much more accurate description of the issue but still leaves the sense of urgency in place. Thanks again,

Chad Terpstra · July 3rd, 2006, 11:28 AM

Sounds good to me. I'm glad the problem ended up being something other than what I first thought.

Stephen L. Noe · July 3rd, 2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Freedman

I having been using the AY-DVM63AMQ tapes in my Z1 for several months now because they are far cheaper than the Sony DVCAM tapes. To date, I have not experienced a single drop out. Probably shot through 40 hours of footage.

Maybe that's the issue. They work OK in Sony.

They do not work well in JVC.

July 3rd, 2006, 04:43 AM	#22
Ken Freed JVC JVC Regional Sales Engineer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wayne, NJ Posts: 49	Chad, Sorry to hear of this problem, The GY-HD100 has become a very stable product, I get few calls on it and I cover half the country. I've had more than a dozen of them by now. Ths camera should go to the Aurora, Il service center, I can give you the address if you email me at kfreed@jvc.com Three things on this thread: FIRST about tape: We recommend the use of a pro tape of 63 minutes, not a consumer tape of 60 minutes. We do not support the use of 83 minute tapes as they are so thin. We do not require the use of JVC tape. Sony and Panasonic and we make very good tape. Sony and JVC tape for HDV is a better tape and it is the best tape we make for these cameras. There are alway several people who get perfectly fine results from the cheapest tape they can find and there are some people who do not. Some people never mix tape lubricant types. Some people do mix types and never have a problem until the day they have a problem. Someone somewhere has had a problem with every type of tape ever made. SECOND about reusing tapes: What literally all of you do not know is that DV transports do not have an erase head in the mechanism. So the tape is not erased before it is recorded over. The mechanism must therefore lock on to the ITI sector and sync to the stripes already on the tape and literally do an insert of the new data to the old track. As you can imagine, 10 micron tracks are rather small and close together. This works best with tapes recorded already on the same device, but any motion or jolt to the camera can throw it off a track so it must resynch. I just had a call last week from a fellow who was given some DVCAM tapes to reuse. The DVCAM of course you know is wider track spacing since the tape is pulled faster so his poor camera never had a chance. This is also why we don't support the 6 micron track pitch of the LP mode. Just thought you might like to know. THIRD about erase tapes: Chris, you shouldn't take more than a couple asprin every few hours. But in fact this warning is because some people will take a bottle a day. Same with erase tapes. I probably run them more often that anyone since I never know what people have put in my demo cameras. I sure am not going to say run a tape many times, but really 10 seconds isn't going to cause a problem. And of course if a couple passes of a cleaning tape doesn't clear it there may be another problem. I have seen two types of cleaning tape. There is a Panasonic I have that says hard on the shell. This is a more abrasive tape and I wouldn't use a hard type tape often. __________________ Ken Freed JVC Mid-Atlantic District Sales Manager (201) 637-7706 kfreed@jvc.com

July 3rd, 2006, 06:56 AM	#23
Bob Diesso New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 16	Utterly burned by cheap tape JVC seems to attract more than its share of flack. Anyone reading (only) this string's headline would easily conclude an HD100 failed, destroying a production, which seems a bit unfair. In light of two pages of commentary and Mr. Terpstra's subsequent experiences, wouldn't a title like "Utterly burned by cheap tape" seem more appropriate?

July 3rd, 2006, 07:06 AM	#24
Bob Diesso New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 16	"Motion Trails Galore" Another string's title, "Motion Trails Galore", creates a similarly alarming HD100 impression. Reading through the string, the real culpret turned out to be an LCD panel with long refresh times. Just an observation.

July 2nd, 2006, 06:40 PM	#17
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Here is the answer from the JVC HD100 FAQ: +++++++++++++++++ What media can be used with ProHD? Current ProHD models are designed to record on conventional MiniDV and full size DV (deck only). JVC offers premium grade ProHD media (M-DV63ProHD) for mission critical use. +++++++++++++++++ It doesn't say JVC brand has to be used. And obviously, more expensive tapes can have characteristics and qualities that are desireable to some users in various situations. There are differences in basic tape stock, magnetic formulations and mechanisms, and I am sure some tapes are better in and some worse in various recording mechanisms.

July 2nd, 2006, 08:32 PM	#18
Dave Wallin New Boot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: burbank, Ca Posts: 11	Just a follow up on the Panasonic stock - now are we talking about the AY-DVM63MQ stock or the new AY-DVM63AMQ stock that has the dropouts when shooting HDV? I have not used the new "A" series yet but if that is the one that is causing the dropout, or if it is the older stock, or if it is both - let us know.

July 3rd, 2006, 12:51 AM	#21
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	well a couple of things... 1. name the tape brand and some one has a disaster story to tell about it. it happens, bad tapes slip through. 2. Premium tapes come from mid roll, have better QC, and hence the price 3. in this case, it appears to be an after the fact head clog when playing back. I'd think even one more run with the head cleaner and all the D.O.'s might go away. this happens. sometimes you get a really bad clog like that where it takes a couple of passes with the head cleaner to get things good again. there is also manual cleaning, if you are so skilled and inclined. I've been using the PQ tapes because they have worked well for me on other cameras, but I did see a couple of DO's in some HD stuff I shot a month ago, a few frames of loss, no big deal as it wasn't a ciritcal shot, and it was at the bottom of the frame. I've love to use $3 JVC tapes rather than the $5-$6 PQ's, but once you see the price of some other tape stock like HDcam, $9.50 for a premium DV tape will seem like quite the bargin Steve Oakley

July 3rd, 2006, 09:47 AM	#26
Ben Freedman Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 188	Just an FYI: I having been using the AY-DVM63AMQ tapes in my Z1 for several months now because they are far cheaper than the Sony DVCAM tapes. To date, I have not experienced a single drop out. Probably shot through 40 hours of footage. Best, Benjamin ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.neo-fight.tv [The "Techno-Debate" Video Podcast]

July 3rd, 2006, 11:28 AM	#29
Chad Terpstra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 320	Sounds good to me. I'm glad the problem ended up being something other than what I first thought.