New Short Film with HD-100/ Mini35

[Giuseppe Pugliese]

Originally Posted by Joel Aaron

- The ADR was noticeable to me as well as some Foley. I'm not a sound guy, but my gut feeling when listening was that the location background levels could probably be bumped up a bit. Perhaps room reverb on the voices need some tweaking. I'd be curious what the other sound guy thinks he's hearing and his prescription for working on it.

I think "the other sound guy" is me? haha I’m not sure but if so this is my outlook on it... Just to give you a point of view of how I’m hearing it... I am listening/watching your film in my editing room with tuned event 20/20 speakers (right out of my recording studio) I also have a pair of consumer sonys just to hear what it sounds like to other people. The room is acoustically tuned, and is pretty accurate. all speakers are isolated (floated) from all objets with their stands. I have a 5.1 surround setup as well as a stereo setting (just turning THX off)

now that you know how im hearing it, here’s what I think you can do to re-work the sound...

add a lot more ambient sounds/noise... this well help make it more believable, I don’t know if you used any limiters or gates because the compressed file wont really be able to show me that, but if you are turn them OFF. instead EDIT out all the noise in the dialogue track that you don’t want, and then add a very quick fade out only at the end of the edits... this will help IF you have problems with the dialogue sounding to isolated which you might. you should take some room and outdoor ambient sound takes... you might already have them on file... but if you really wanna re-work it you should track some wildsound outside in a quiet area and leave the mics open and clean... then blend that in with the layers you already have don’t delete only add.

Lots of people are afraid to add layers in their audio, but this is how you get the real sounds. If its "clean" its not going to sound right, dirty up the sound... add all different kinds of wild sound recordings in the background and mix them until they sound real... for mixing there’s no way for me to explain how to do this, its an art, but try to hear that sweet spot once you get the mix sounding REAL.

as for sound fx... lower them... its nice that you have great sounding doors opening and closing... but it sticks out to much... you don’t want the people to be able to say wow that was a great door sound... you want them to think you never did anything at all... if you don’t notice it that’s usually when you're work is the best. This is the biggest problem i hear in all indie work, (not to say i haven’t made these mistakes as well in my time) but just keep the sound fx lower. don’t let them take away from what’s happening visually, its supposed to blend, not one compete for the other.

scores should be mixed WITH ALL ambient nose as well... don’t just take a score and have that as all your sound... try to mix in as much as you are seeing... if you see that they are outside, let the audience hear the outside, if you see them moving there clothing a lot, add that, and so on and so on. Just make sure you blend it ALL don’t leave things out, that’s when its noticeable. The score should be telling the story musically WITH the sound fx... score and sound fx are the hardest thing to blend until the very end. make sure that the overall sound will take you into the story, not make you think wow they sound so clean, they sound so perfectly picked up. that takes away from the visual not add. (now that’s not to say it shouldn’t sound great) but as I like to say, dirty up your sound, it will come out better.

as for a person who doesn’t do foley and ADR for a living you did a very good job on your first attempt to redo all sound. there’s nothing you did any different than what I did the first time I removed all the sound from one of my shorts... so you are doing fine, and I hoped this helped you or anyone else out there whose looking to do ADR and foley work.

so theres my 2 bits :)

[Brian Duke]

Giuseppe,

Thanks for your input. I guess it comes down to different ears hearing different things and a matter of likings.

I did play on a variety of systems and it all sounded good to others and me. In addition I matched it up with other feature films to compare and it sounded very close, if not the same. I think if you know or are told that there are certain area of sound to listen to they stick out much more. I tried turning down some of the sound and then listen back, but it didn't sound right. I actually like when there are certain sounds that stick out such as footsteps if the scene calls for that, or a loud door slamming indicating "f$ck you." Also, I did use a lot of the ambient from the original rooms.

If there are specific places, such as someone pointed out about the laughter in the motel room sounding like it didn't come form outside, it will help me better since I can pinpoint the issue. I have listened to the sound probably 300 times and with 25 years of a sound background I can't hear much problems, but then again, I may be so used to it =)

I agree with a lot of what you say, I am just not sure what places in the movie where it applies. I am not sure I agree that music should ALWAYS be accompanied with the ambient sounds. Again, that is probably a matter of style and direction, but there are plenty of great flicks that have places with music only where it works.

A good way to practice is to watch a good Hollywood feature and put on loud headphones WITHOUT watching the images and just listen to the sound. You will get a different set of ears afterwards when it comes to sound. You be surprised how the sound is mixed and heard, but people don’t pay attention to it when they watch images generally.

So if you can point out some places where it sounds empty, too loud, strange etc I would appreciate it so I can make any changes. Thanks!

That’s just my 24 bit =)

[Jack Walker]

Since you asked for specific spots:

The second car door closing sound (when the women gets out of the car) is early...

In addition it the wrong kind of sound for the way she closes the door.

The first door, driver's side, sounds fine; the sound mathes the firmly closed door.

However, on the second close, the passenger's door, she closes the door not quite hard enough then pushes it all the way shut. What we hear is a firm close, before the door is actually closed, not a close that matches the way she closes it.

An interesting movie of an indie/low budget movie that was a big hit and did not shoot sound with picture is Rodriguez's El Mariachi.

Then there are all of the Italian western's (such as The Good, the Bad and the Ugly).
I see most of the new, big-budget and good independent releases in a screening theater in L.A. A lot have the more subltle blended sounds. But some, even the biggest budget, have sounds up front in many cases. If it is by choice, and it is consistent, and it works with the film, the audience quickly adapts to whatever style it is.

However, bad sound will get people to walk out, but the same people will sit through the most horrid quality picture if the sound is good and easy to listen to.

If there is a point to this post it is: Pay as much attention to the quality of microphones, mixer, and sound recording technique as to the camera and picture recording settings.

[Panos Bournias]

Brian I enjoyed very much your movie. I wish you the best with it. As I liked the image, even if I have seen only the low resolution version, I was wondering if you could post the setings that you have been using. I wish you luck at the festivals and bravo again. You gave us a short with mood, that is more important than the details and the ideas...
Panos

[Brian Duke]

Originally Posted by Panos Bournias

Brian I enjoyed very much your movie. I wish you the best with it. As I liked the image, even if I have seen only the low resolution version, I was wondering if you could post the setings that you have been using. I wish you luck at the festivals and bravo again. You gave us a short with mood, that is more important than the details and the ideas...
Panos

Thanks =)

I will be psoting a higher resolution for Windows soon. The settinsg were pretty much Tim's Reverse (Three Kings). I am not sure I still have them in my camera, but they are posted as a STICKY here. When I geta chance I will post them if I see any major differences. Thanks again.

[John Clark]

What a camera! Very film like. There was so much I liked about the film, but I would like to offer a few thoughts. I felt although the sound was clear, at times you felt like they were talking an inch away from the mic, when the viewer was quite a bit further. (I know you did it with overdubs, but I feel the visual distance should match the audio, in most cases.) The killer was absolutely outstanding as an actor but didn't have the face or eyes of a killer. He actually looked like a kind soul. The other actors were very good too. I felt some of the shots were too long, eg the profile of the husband sitting in the car, the killer walking along the hillside. (a little too much French film influence.) I like your choice of score especially nessan Dorma (I"m sure that's not how you spell it.) Opera singing and murder are always a perfect mix. As great as everything in your film was, I felt the weakest link was the dialogue. A little too much exposition, and at times it didn't flow like natural conversation. question, How did the killer not recognize his own daughter from the picture after the husband gave it to him? How could the wife be so dumb as to not know what finding a used condom might mean? All in all it was very inspiring and shows a high level of talent. Good luck with it.

[Brian Duke]

Originally Posted by John Clark

The killer was absolutely outstanding as an actor but didn't have the face or eyes of a killer. He actually looked like a kind soul.

That was sort of the point. Someone that has a good soul, but gone down the wrong path. The story was loosly based on, believe it or not, Kellie Pickler (American Idol) and her dad. I just heard her talk about not having seen her dad since she was little, and that he was in and out of jail, so I figred that was a good premise to start with. I, of course, added the twist in the plot.. =)

Originally Posted by John Clark

I felt some of the shots were too long, eg the profile of the husband sitting in the car, the killer walking along the hillside. (a little too much French film influence.)

Well, the opening shot I wanted to show that he was sitting just waiting trying to make a decision, still not sure of what to do. The mountain shot of him walking just went so well with the music that I had to keep it =)

overall my intention was to a have short that sort of flowed like a piece of music, which is how I write, regardless of the type of music. This was written as a moody piece. (Actually an Ultravox song, "Vienna") So it kind of has the mellow moddiness, and then change in pace and back to the moodiness. Not sure if it worked out that way, but that was my intention. That is why its good to hear all the comments.

Originally Posted by John Clark

I felt the weakest link was the dialogue. A little too much exposition, and at times it didn't flow like natural conversation.

It is VERY difficult to do a short and still remain having a plot without being on the "nose" with the dialogue. I tried to keep a balance between general conversation and keeping the plot/story going without hitting people over the head. Again, it is extremely difficult when you don't have much time, contrary to a feature where you can take it a lot slower with character and plot development. The flow could be due to the overdubs, but after listening to the original dialogue it is VERY Close.

Originally Posted by John Clark

How did the killer not recognize his own daughter from the picture after the husband gave it to him?

Do you generally recognize people at 20-30 you only saw when they were 2 years old? This was one of the first questions I was asked before even writing the script, but if you had a daughter and you left at 2 years old, meeting her at 25 probably doesn’t ring a bell. In addition, the Dad wasn't thinking about that and it was last on his mind that it could or was his daughter.

Originally Posted by John Clark

How could the wife be so dumb as to not know what finding a used condom might mean?

I don't know about you, but people I know from life experience generally are in denial of what they see and hear, especially if it is detrimental to them. She did say, "of course I know, but I just don't want to think about it," so there was an acknowledgement, but who wants to accept that their spouse/girl; or boyfriend is cheating on them?

Originally Posted by John Clark

All in all it was very inspiring and shows a high level of talent. Good luck with it.

Thanks, much appreciated =)

[Giuseppe Pugliese]

Originally Posted by Brian Duke

Giuseppe,

Thanks for your input. I guess it comes down to different ears hearing different things and a matter of likings.

I did play on a variety of systems and it all sounded good to others and me. In addition I matched it up with other feature films to compare and it sounded very close, if not the same. I think if you know or are told that there are certain area of sound to listen to they stick out much more. I tried turning down some of the sound and then listen back, but it didn't sound right. I actually like when there are certain sounds that stick out such as footsteps if the scene calls for that, or a loud door slamming indicating "f$ck you." Also, I did use a lot of the ambient from the original rooms.

If there are specific places, such as someone pointed out about the laughter in the motel room sounding like it didn't come form outside, it will help me better since I can pinpoint the issue. I have listened to the sound probably 300 times and with 25 years of a sound background I can't hear much problems, but then again, I may be so used to it =)

I agree with a lot of what you say, I am just not sure what places in the movie where it applies. I am not sure I agree that music should ALWAYS be accompanied with the ambient sounds. Again, that is probably a matter of style and direction, but there are plenty of great flicks that have places with music only where it works.

A good way to practice is to watch a good Hollywood feature and put on loud headphones WITHOUT watching the images and just listen to the sound. You will get a different set of ears afterwards when it comes to sound. You be surprised how the sound is mixed and heard, but people don’t pay attention to it when they watch images generally.

So if you can point out some places where it sounds empty, too loud, strange etc I would appreciate it so I can make any changes. Thanks!

That’s just my 24 bit =)

I actually gave the film a third listen... this time with the bigger file... i have to say the audio was MUCH better than on the compressed file. so some of what i said can be thrown out the door, but as someone else pointed out there was lots of little things that stick out still, like the doors closing not matching the sound. and the mics being close up, i should have said that right from the start... thats what throws you off more than anything... have the mic farther away from the actor when doing outside shots, and yes we all do have different ways of hearing things so remember these are all opinions. But for my ears the ADR is very noticeable and thats still the same from the very first time i heard it. I really dont think you will have to worry about this, for a 2 day shoot you got what you could, its no ones fault and the short is a cool short...

As for the comment someone left that some of the shots were to long, i actually like long shots. Again perfect example of difference in opinion. but i personally loved the timing of the long shots. cinematically I love the film, honestly there were only 2 things that stuck out for me camera wise...

one was the crane shot when they were in the secluded area talking, the camera was rising but the pan down was kind of stuttered ( i dont hold any of these at your film because I know you guys did a rush job, so its probably better than most people would have gotten with the time.) and the only other problem i saw visually was the shots at the end... the cropping and position of the camera on the tight shots of the actors were off a bit, it didn’t mesh to look like they were directly talking to each other, again... all in taste all within your time to shoot it...

i love the cinematography of the film, mini35 rocked, nice focus.. you did a good job.

As for me I will now shut up I think I’ve talked enough on this thread haha I feel kind of bad that I brought up any details about it, it’s a good film.

[Brian Duke]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe Pugliese

I actually gave the film a third listen... this time with the bigger file... i have to say the audio was MUCH better than on the compressed file. ...haha I feel kind of bad that I brought up any details about it, it’s a good film.

I'll tell ya. I almost went crazy looking at the screen and the sound trying to figure out what was wrong. I did do some minor changes, such as door slamming and making it match, and did a few ADR's over, but overall when I play it back on a regular TV here and other places it sounds great. Easy to understand and not in your face like on louder speakers, which most people don't play movies on anyway. Even my surround sound system sounds really good.

From what I had and the nightmares I had to go through with unusable fottage sound issues etc I think I did a pretty good job at the end. So, now I am on to my next project shooting in two weeks. YEAH! This should be more fun and less stressful as I will be taking my time.

I will post the updates, but I'm sure no one will really notice the difference anyway. Thanks again.

[Amos Kim]

Duke, I found the images a little hard to watch because the blacks looked really crushed.... almost no detail in them. Did you purposely want this look?

[Brian Duke]

Originally Posted by Amos Kim

Duke, I found the images a little hard to watch because the blacks looked really crushed.... almost no detail in them. Did you purposely want this look?

Which images?

[Amos Kim]

The whole piece in general had very little detail in the blacks. Anything dark looked complete black; not much discernable grays. Maybe could it have been the post production filters you used or just the nature of HDV having narrow latitude?

[Brian Duke]

Originally Posted by Amos Kim

The whole piece in general had very little detail in the blacks. Anything dark looked complete black; not much discernable grays. Maybe could it have been the post production filters you used or just the nature of HDV having narrow latitude?

That's the way we set the camera for that look. I like it, and I am much more concerned with narrative motion, rtaher than technical. The camera can be set to however you want it.

[Brian Duke]

UPDATE!: I Added a Window Media Player Better quality to the website for you guys who can't download the Quicktime file.

http://www.hd-motionpictures.com/twistofFate.html

[Keith Ward]

Brian,

You have the right attitude, one that's refreshing compared to so many others on film sites I visit -- it starts with the script. Without that, you can have Scorcese directing and Sean Penn and Johnny Depp as your leads and it will still stink. I've always been a believer that if your story's good and your actors make it real, audiences will forgive almost any technical shortcomings.

That's not to say proper exposure, lighting, sound, shot composition, etc. aren't important; certainly they are. But when those things are the priority, rather than story, the film will surely suffer. I've seen so much tech talk on filmmaking sites, and when I look at those sites' sections on scriptwriting, there's almost no one there. That speaks volumes to me.

I was a print journalist for 16 years (newspapers and magazines, first as a reporter, then an editor) before giving it up earlier this year to go into filmmaking; that's why I place so much emphasis on the writing. I encourage everyone doing this to run their scripts by real writers before shooting a frame of video or doing any other pre-production. Find the weak spots and hack away; be merciless. It'll only make your end product better.

Brian, I'm encouraged about your ability to be successful in this biz because of your priorities. Much luck.

Remember: story, Story, STORY!