Disappointed in Redrock M2 adapter

Jonathan Ames · May 24th, 2006, 07:01 PM

I'm still waiting to hear from Taylor. You know, I've been thionking. "24" is a closed and I mean really CLOSED set. All that time on the set of "24" with Taylor and Rodney Charters testing cameras, they may be on to something. And, with that set-up he did for me, I'm thinking he has a personal relationship with Jack Bauer and the CTU Unit has given him access to anti-terrorist intel how the Russians have perfected the Redrock unit and Jack somehow smuggled it back guided by Chloe who's the real computer mastermind behind the Unit. Of course President Logan probably knows about the Redrock device as well now and, thinking it's Russian made and, he's working with the mysterious man behind the scenes, you know, the weird Doctor from ER, who wants to keep it a secret so he's dispatched the Special Forces to capture Taylor and Rodney Charters as well who's now in Toronto shooting another show and trhat's why Taylor hasn't signed on to the Board here all day. He's on a Chinese tanker headed back to Asia with Jack Bauer and we won't have a working M2 until he and Jack somehow escape. But that's not until next season which debuts in January 2007!!!!!!!!!!

OK, now I know I've been in this business too long. I'm writing real-world technology into Fox's scripts. Save me!!!

Stephan Ahonen · May 24th, 2006, 09:37 PM

That's not nearly as scary as the fact that Jack Bauer has personally killed 130 people in only 5 days.

Winston Vargas · May 24th, 2006, 10:01 PM

That doesn't make any sense. The adapter has to work just like any other. the depth of field is created by the lens in front of it, just like it would on a 35mm camera. Something isn't right. In any case you want to see footage of my 70mm adapter which is now finished, just send me your address and I will send you a DVD with 20 minutes of footage.. My adapter uses medium format lenses, not 35mm and my groundglass is twice the size of the 35mm.
wvargas@nyc.rr.com I was also at NAB and saw the redrock adapter on display at the JVC booth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyce Mahoney

Boy, I know it's been a while since I've been here but since starting my own biz it's been 18 hour days. Listen, I have a question. At NAB I saw what I thought was the answer to my problems. At the JVC booth there was a Red Rock M2 display that had this converter that not only allowed me to use prime lenses but gave me great depth of field as well. When I talked to the RedRock people they told me that's the beauty of the Red Rock...great DOF. So I get one and put it on and NOTHING. I mean my primes fit but the depth of field is just like it always was...long and crystal clear. Has anyone else had this problem? I was promised that the M2 wuold give me film-like DOF but it doesn't. Anyone?

Joel Aaron · May 24th, 2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston Vargas

My adapter uses medium format lenses, not 35mm and my groundglass is twice the size of the 35mm.

Sound cool, can you post anything online? Doesn't a larger format have even less DOF than 35mm?

Chris Barcellos · May 25th, 2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston Vargas

In any case you want to see footage of my 70mm adapter which is now finished, just send me your address and I will send you a DVD with 20 minutes of footage.. My adapter uses medium format lenses, not 35mm and my groundglass is twice the size of the 35mm.

Winston:

I ve got three medium format Kowa 6 Lenses. I have been toying with doing the same thing with them. How did the footage come out ?

Jim Giberti · May 25th, 2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ames

Joel, Jim and all, let me ask you a question. If you were going for this device and money was no object...within of course reason...what would you do or build with what components, I mean if you had the choice of any lens and system set up, SD Achromat or HD for the shot I described. What I'm trying to figure is if Taylor has specific pieces that the rest of us don't have in addition to the Redrock box or if he's just figured out to manipulate everything for repetitive takes. I thought I was done with this but the issues really got me scratching my head all the way home from the studio.
Jonathan

Hy Jonathan, when I was working with Guy (the tech guru at ZGC) setting up our first generation Mini 35, we were apparently the first people seriously pursuing the Nikon option.

I had rented the system for a couple of projects and tested it with Zeiss Super Speeds and Cooke primes so I had a lot of test footage and finished work for comparison. I bought the Mini 35 with both the PL mount and Nikon option but never used the PL.

My opinion and Guy agreed was that the inherent resolution didn't benefit from the $18,000 cine lens versus the $700 still lens.

Gearing for follow focus and breathing were the big differences and once Mizell and I found someone to gear our Nikons individually that problem was solved and breathing was never a production problem.

So, given the affordability of the M2, and the fact that they're now shipping a follow focus with an adjustable set of rings that you can gear your Still glass with it's a no brainer for me. The best glass available that's not cine are Nikon AIS primes. These are the solid, all metal build, smooth manual focus (smooth like cine smooth) lenses. as Joel mentioned, the 35mm 1.4, 50mm 1.2 and 85mm 1.4 are the lenses to get. The 85mm is a big 72mm wide chunk of glass that looks like a cine prime at the end of your camera, and is probably the nicest short tele out there. I also added the 24mm 2.0 and the 135mm 2.0.

This along with the Redrock FF and gears would give you a really affordable high end imaging setup.

I'm just starting my research into the M2 (I was about to order it a couple of days ago and then wanted to make sure that any issues being discussed here were not real issues). Anyway, because of that I can't really speak to the M2 particulars although I would be very interested in Zoerk/Nikon relay option instead of the Fuji for length and quality issues.

I've got to make a decision fast...we're going into principle p. on our new film in just over a month and given the less than stellar results with the Mini 35 and HD, I'm hoping that the M2...long and upside down as it is, will be the solution.

Jonathan Ames · May 25th, 2006, 01:24 PM

I've made the decision to get more involved with the camera aspects of the company, something for which I have historically relied on people like veteran cameraman Mike Pellagatti, a guy that if you ever have the opportunity to work with, take it because he's one of the most knowlegable and personally wonderful guys in the business. You won't regret a minute of your decision.

That being said, it's funny that you would select those lenses. I've been offered the 35 and 85mm already having the 50mm, each recommended by you and other wonderful people here on Chris' forum, to use as long as I needed while I sort out the perfect set up for the shooting we do here. I've been amazed at the number of e-mails sent to me by people on this board and dvxuser who have offered their help off-line so as not to crowd the pipeline here on-line. Combined with the discussion I had with Taylor last evening where he agreed to come by and discuss what he's done with the Redrock system, I might finally be able to put my arms around this issue and get a set up that gives me the results we need here for the cameras positioned in the color commentators' booth. Those shots need specific glass because they're chromaed (is that a word?) and I need to be able to isolate each of the three commentators on their own, individual camera with a fourth wide on the group for a coll shot. For the Decedmber, 2005 National, we used three different cameras inicluding the JVC 100HD which I finally standardised on purchasing 5 more from EVS to add to the one we already had in January. We also used the stock JVC/Fujinon lens that came with the cameras and I have to tell you it really did a decent job when it came time to drop out the green screen and insert the background. The screen just had to be lit right which Mike did with aplomb. But it could be better and that's why I'm looking for the best setup and hoping everyone here can help me which you already have immensely.

Cole McDonald · May 25th, 2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ames

Well then it must be me and my camera guys because we couldn't get it to hold focus at all when we reassembled the unit.

I hate to ask the obvious questions, but I'm a tech support kinda guy...could you have auto focus on or something else obvious but easy to overlook?

Jonathan Ames · May 25th, 2006, 06:05 PM

First off, as a producer and not a camera operator or audio tech or DP or any of the things that take real brains to master, nothing with me could ever be a bad, stupid or obvious question. Just figure I overlooked the obvious and you'll be on fairly safe ground. But thankfully this time no, no autofocus. I'm anxious to see what Taylor has up his sleeve because I'm at wit's end trying to figure out how Redrock had such a rock-solid (pun definitely intended) unit that couldn't be knocked out of focus by the "ham-hands" like me grabbing at the camera for 4-days straight at NAB and I can't replicate that solidity...and neither can some fairly smart camera operators and one really smart physicist acquaintence whose field of study iuncludes, as best I can recall, optical eschemia and achromatic aberration and whose thesis was on the Petzval condition (notes I took when he showed up with his brother, a camera operator at Warners).

Jonathan Ames · May 25th, 2006, 06:07 PM

And where the heck is Sauk Rapids?

James Hurd · May 27th, 2006, 01:45 PM

Guys,
There's nothing secretive about how the JVC was setup at NAB. Basically you set the focus and zoom on the fujinon. Then place the achromat (without any 72-82mm stepup/stepdown ring) between the camera and the M2. Then push the JVC up against the achromat until it has wedged the achromat. Because the part of the lens that's touching the achromat (plastic ring outside of the glass but inside the hood) rotates as it's focused, it will cause the lens focus ring to become unmoveable. The zoom had a small piece (about 1" square) of gaffer tape on it. This is why it never moved during the entire show. No biggie!

Also, Brian Valente tells me this information is posted on the Redrock Forums.

We're going to be releasing an addon part soon that works on all cameras and will keep the zoom/focus rings on the camera from moving. (and won't be a hack) :)

I hope this helps!

*** EDIT ***
Regarding the Nikon relay. Even if it worked well, (I've built this and it was much worse than the fujinon) after adding the Nikon mount etc, you're only really talking about losing a little less than 4 inches of length. Plus, with the Nikon relay, you can't zoom. So if you need to tweak the image focal length, you can't. Also, with the fujinon locked down on the sweet part of the fujinon lens, there's no chromatic abberations.

My JVCHD100U has a fujinon lens on it. ;)

Happy shooting!

Cole McDonald · May 27th, 2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ames

And where the heck is Sauk Rapids?

central MN, attached to St. Cloud.

Taylor Wigton · June 4th, 2006, 08:43 PM

This post will be deleted. An error occured.

Taylor Wigton
DP, Los Angeles

Brian Valente · June 4th, 2006, 11:18 PM

guys - sorry I'm late to the game here. I am accustomed to product support threads over at the redrock site.

For HD100/M2 owners, the lockdown setup is posted (and has been for some time) in the customer support forums under "HD100".

Thanks

Brian

Taylor Wigton · June 5th, 2006, 12:36 AM

Apologies folks. Been in Canada for awile and have not been in touch with Redrock, and was not aware that they were trying to contact me to collaborate on a DVD that would contain various tips and tricks that would help lockdown the M2 to whatever camera system you are using. Be in touch soon.

All the best,

Taylor Wigton
DP, Los Angeles

June 4th, 2006, 08:43 PM	#58
Taylor Wigton Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 50	Please Delete this post. Thanks. This post will be deleted. An error occured. Taylor Wigton DP, Los Angeles Last edited by Taylor Wigton; June 5th, 2006 at 01:03 AM. Reason: Did not get Redrock email.

June 4th, 2006, 11:18 PM	#59
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	guys - sorry I'm late to the game here. I am accustomed to product support threads over at the redrock site. For HD100/M2 owners, the lockdown setup is posted (and has been for some time) in the customer support forums under "HD100". Thanks Brian __________________ ========================== Brian Valente Redrock Microsystems

June 5th, 2006, 12:36 AM	#60
Taylor Wigton Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 50	Edit: Apologies folks. Been in Canada for awile and have not been in touch with Redrock, and was not aware that they were trying to contact me to collaborate on a DVD that would contain various tips and tricks that would help lockdown the M2 to whatever camera system you are using. Be in touch soon. All the best, Taylor Wigton DP, Los Angeles Last edited by Taylor Wigton; June 5th, 2006 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Did not get Redrock email.

May 24th, 2006, 07:01 PM	#46
Jonathan Ames 2nd Unit TV Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 509	I'm still waiting to hear from Taylor. You know, I've been thionking. "24" is a closed and I mean really CLOSED set. All that time on the set of "24" with Taylor and Rodney Charters testing cameras, they may be on to something. And, with that set-up he did for me, I'm thinking he has a personal relationship with Jack Bauer and the CTU Unit has given him access to anti-terrorist intel how the Russians have perfected the Redrock unit and Jack somehow smuggled it back guided by Chloe who's the real computer mastermind behind the Unit. Of course President Logan probably knows about the Redrock device as well now and, thinking it's Russian made and, he's working with the mysterious man behind the scenes, you know, the weird Doctor from ER, who wants to keep it a secret so he's dispatched the Special Forces to capture Taylor and Rodney Charters as well who's now in Toronto shooting another show and trhat's why Taylor hasn't signed on to the Board here all day. He's on a Chinese tanker headed back to Asia with Jack Bauer and we won't have a working M2 until he and Jack somehow escape. But that's not until next season which debuts in January 2007!!!!!!!!!! OK, now I know I've been in this business too long. I'm writing real-world technology into Fox's scripts. Save me!!!

May 24th, 2006, 09:37 PM	#47
Stephan Ahonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 512	That's not nearly as scary as the fact that Jack Bauer has personally killed 130 people in only 5 days.

May 25th, 2006, 01:24 PM	#52
Jonathan Ames 2nd Unit TV Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 509	I've made the decision to get more involved with the camera aspects of the company, something for which I have historically relied on people like veteran cameraman Mike Pellagatti, a guy that if you ever have the opportunity to work with, take it because he's one of the most knowlegable and personally wonderful guys in the business. You won't regret a minute of your decision. That being said, it's funny that you would select those lenses. I've been offered the 35 and 85mm already having the 50mm, each recommended by you and other wonderful people here on Chris' forum, to use as long as I needed while I sort out the perfect set up for the shooting we do here. I've been amazed at the number of e-mails sent to me by people on this board and dvxuser who have offered their help off-line so as not to crowd the pipeline here on-line. Combined with the discussion I had with Taylor last evening where he agreed to come by and discuss what he's done with the Redrock system, I might finally be able to put my arms around this issue and get a set up that gives me the results we need here for the cameras positioned in the color commentators' booth. Those shots need specific glass because they're chromaed (is that a word?) and I need to be able to isolate each of the three commentators on their own, individual camera with a fourth wide on the group for a coll shot. For the Decedmber, 2005 National, we used three different cameras inicluding the JVC 100HD which I finally standardised on purchasing 5 more from EVS to add to the one we already had in January. We also used the stock JVC/Fujinon lens that came with the cameras and I have to tell you it really did a decent job when it came time to drop out the green screen and insert the background. The screen just had to be lit right which Mike did with aplomb. But it could be better and that's why I'm looking for the best setup and hoping everyone here can help me which you already have immensely.

May 25th, 2006, 06:05 PM	#54
Jonathan Ames 2nd Unit TV Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 509	First off, as a producer and not a camera operator or audio tech or DP or any of the things that take real brains to master, nothing with me could ever be a bad, stupid or obvious question. Just figure I overlooked the obvious and you'll be on fairly safe ground. But thankfully this time no, no autofocus. I'm anxious to see what Taylor has up his sleeve because I'm at wit's end trying to figure out how Redrock had such a rock-solid (pun definitely intended) unit that couldn't be knocked out of focus by the "ham-hands" like me grabbing at the camera for 4-days straight at NAB and I can't replicate that solidity...and neither can some fairly smart camera operators and one really smart physicist acquaintence whose field of study iuncludes, as best I can recall, optical eschemia and achromatic aberration and whose thesis was on the Petzval condition (notes I took when he showed up with his brother, a camera operator at Warners).

May 25th, 2006, 06:07 PM	#55
Jonathan Ames 2nd Unit TV Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 509	And where the heck is Sauk Rapids?

May 27th, 2006, 01:45 PM	#56
James Hurd Micro35 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 221	Guys, There's nothing secretive about how the JVC was setup at NAB. Basically you set the focus and zoom on the fujinon. Then place the achromat (without any 72-82mm stepup/stepdown ring) between the camera and the M2. Then push the JVC up against the achromat until it has wedged the achromat. Because the part of the lens that's touching the achromat (plastic ring outside of the glass but inside the hood) rotates as it's focused, it will cause the lens focus ring to become unmoveable. The zoom had a small piece (about 1" square) of gaffer tape on it. This is why it never moved during the entire show. No biggie! Also, Brian Valente tells me this information is posted on the Redrock Forums. We're going to be releasing an addon part soon that works on all cameras and will keep the zoom/focus rings on the camera from moving. (and won't be a hack) :) I hope this helps! * EDIT * Regarding the Nikon relay. Even if it worked well, (I've built this and it was much worse than the fujinon) after adding the Nikon mount etc, you're only really talking about losing a little less than 4 inches of length. Plus, with the Nikon relay, you can't zoom. So if you need to tweak the image focal length, you can't. Also, with the fujinon locked down on the sweet part of the fujinon lens, there's no chromatic abberations. My JVCHD100U has a fujinon lens on it. ;) Happy shooting!