Component HD to HD-SDI conversion at DVinfo.net

John Mitchell · May 9th, 2006, 06:22 AM

I've been searching around the net and it seems none of the current crop of HD Component to HD-SDI converters support all the framerates of the HD100U/101E.

Most seem to support 720P @30 and 59.94 and 60 and a couple support 50, but nothing seems to support 24P, 25P or the ED definitions of 576/50 and 480/60.

I'm hoping someone out there might have found a solution?

Thomas Smet · May 9th, 2006, 08:33 AM

That is because with 720p there isn't really any other framerate other than 60p or 50p. All other franerates are embedded in a 60p or 50p stream. With a camera like Varicam there is metadata with the stream that indicates which frames to throw away during capture. With an analog to SDI converter there is no way to transfer that metadata so the only option is to have 60p or 50p. 30p is fairly easy because all it does is drop every other frame. No matter how it does it it would turn out ok. In theory 25p should also work but since it isn't a written in stone european format it isn't there yet. As far as I know you will never ever see 24p in a analog to SDI converter.

The trick is once you get the 60p stream on your hard drive you have to remove the extra frames. I am writing a free program for the PC to do this.

The Decklink products do say they capture 720p at 24p but I think that is with the metadata. I could be wrong on that one however. If it does work it is because you have an advanced device there working on trying to figure out which frames are duplicates and it removes them during capture. Again I'm not sure about the Decklink products because the moron people at Blackmagic ignore every question I ask them.

Greg Boston · May 9th, 2006, 09:42 AM

Plus John, you can get the 24 and 30 FPS stuff out of the firewire port on the HD100. So, why the need to go component out to HDSDI unless that's your only option for ingest?

You do have to use component out for the 720p 60 because it's too much for the FW pipe.

Just curious,

-gb-

Daniel Weber · May 9th, 2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

I've been searching around the net and it seems none of the current crop of HD Component to HD-SDI converters support all the framerates of the HD100U/101E.

Most seem to support 720P @30 and 59.94 and 60 and a couple support 50, but nothing seems to support 24P, 25P or the ED definitions of 576/50 and 480/60.

I'm hoping someone out there might have found a solution?

John,

There are several products that will take HDV out the Firewire port and convert it to HDSDI. Convergent Design makes one and Miranda makes several others. The Miranda products are more expensive.

They have a new model that will convert the 720p24 from Firewire to 1080p24 out HDSDI. This model is not shipping yet, but should be this summer. The model can also crossconvert 720p to 1080i if needed.

Dan Weber

Mark Silva · May 9th, 2006, 11:43 AM

Do you know if it will carry the audio signal as well?

Giroud Francois · May 9th, 2006, 11:56 AM

currently the best converter you van buy is
http://www.aja.com/html/products_con...s_HD10AVA.html

Daniel Weber · May 9th, 2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Silva

Do you know if it will carry the audio signal as well?

It will carry video, audio and timecode over firewire to the box and then give you HDSDI out with embedded audio and then it has an RS422 port for deck control. I believe that you can download a PDF of the specs on the Miranda website. I know that the Convergent Design unit does this as well.

Dan Weber

Daniel Weber · May 9th, 2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giroud Francois

currently the best converter you van buy is
http://www.aja.com/html/products_con...s_HD10AVA.html

This is the best one that you can buy if you want to go out the analog HD ports. you still need to take the audio out the RCA ports to a mixer and then into the HD10AVA. Great unit for only $1000.

It should ship the end of May.

Dan Weber

John Mitchell · May 9th, 2006, 06:33 PM

Thomas thanks for the info - I was aware that the 24P was embedded in the 60P stream. I wasn't aware that 25P was embedded in a 50P stream. I did actually correspond with the guys at AJA and that was the reason for the original post, as they didn't seem to think that their converter would work either.
As far as the reason goes, I have an Adrenaline HD and I want to be able to ingest footage at DNxHD resolutions directly.
AJA (who from my experience have been much more rersponsive than BMD have been for Thomas) have mentioned that they are working on a product that will cross convert as well. edit: BTW BMD emailed back overnight so I don't know what your doing wrong Thomas - they have written presets for PP2 for 720P @ 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, 60 for the Varicam so these might? work with the JVC.
Both Miranda and Convergent Design boxes are way more expensive than the AJA, DVEO or BMD converters so they only make sense if you have a specific need.
The AJA 10AVA does seem the best value for money, setting a new price point for these converters.

John Mitchell · May 9th, 2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

This is the best one that you can buy if you want to go out the analog HD ports. you still need to take the audio out the RCA ports to a mixer and then into the HD10AVA. Great unit for only $1000.

It should ship the end of May.

Dan Weber

Don't really need a mixer Dan - just a DI box would do it.

John Mitchell · May 9th, 2006, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

As far as I know you will never ever see 24p in a analog to SDI converter.

It's a 1:1:1:2 pulldown sequence so a chip like the SIL 504 or the Faroudja which detects 3:2 pulldown could possibly do it. It is a shame that there is no way to flag the repeat frame in the analogue world.

May 9th, 2006, 06:22 AM	#1
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Component HD to HD-SDI conversion I've been searching around the net and it seems none of the current crop of HD Component to HD-SDI converters support all the framerates of the HD100U/101E. Most seem to support 720P @30 and 59.94 and 60 and a couple support 50, but nothing seems to support 24P, 25P or the ED definitions of 576/50 and 480/60. I'm hoping someone out there might have found a solution?

May 9th, 2006, 08:33 AM	#2
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	That is because with 720p there isn't really any other framerate other than 60p or 50p. All other franerates are embedded in a 60p or 50p stream. With a camera like Varicam there is metadata with the stream that indicates which frames to throw away during capture. With an analog to SDI converter there is no way to transfer that metadata so the only option is to have 60p or 50p. 30p is fairly easy because all it does is drop every other frame. No matter how it does it it would turn out ok. In theory 25p should also work but since it isn't a written in stone european format it isn't there yet. As far as I know you will never ever see 24p in a analog to SDI converter. The trick is once you get the 60p stream on your hard drive you have to remove the extra frames. I am writing a free program for the PC to do this. The Decklink products do say they capture 720p at 24p but I think that is with the metadata. I could be wrong on that one however. If it does work it is because you have an advanced device there working on trying to figure out which frames are duplicates and it removes them during capture. Again I'm not sure about the Decklink products because the moron people at Blackmagic ignore every question I ask them.

May 9th, 2006, 09:42 AM	#3
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Plus John, you can get the 24 and 30 FPS stuff out of the firewire port on the HD100. So, why the need to go component out to HDSDI unless that's your only option for ingest? You do have to use component out for the 720p 60 because it's too much for the FW pipe. Just curious, -gb-

May 9th, 2006, 11:43 AM	#5
Mark Silva Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 431	Do you know if it will carry the audio signal as well?

May 9th, 2006, 11:56 AM	#6
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	currently the best converter you van buy is http://www.aja.com/html/products_con...s_HD10AVA.html

May 9th, 2006, 06:33 PM	#9
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Thomas thanks for the info - I was aware that the 24P was embedded in the 60P stream. I wasn't aware that 25P was embedded in a 50P stream. I did actually correspond with the guys at AJA and that was the reason for the original post, as they didn't seem to think that their converter would work either. As far as the reason goes, I have an Adrenaline HD and I want to be able to ingest footage at DNxHD resolutions directly. AJA (who from my experience have been much more rersponsive than BMD have been for Thomas) have mentioned that they are working on a product that will cross convert as well. edit: BTW BMD emailed back overnight so I don't know what your doing wrong Thomas - they have written presets for PP2 for 720P @ 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, 60 for the Varicam so these might? work with the JVC. Both Miranda and Convergent Design boxes are way more expensive than the AJA, DVEO or BMD converters so they only make sense if you have a specific need. The AJA 10AVA does seem the best value for money, setting a new price point for these converters.