HD200 Framerate speculation at DVinfo.net

Tony Tibbetts · April 25th, 2006, 10:54 PM

I'm no technical wizard, I don't even know the correct terminology. Correct me if I'm mistaken but doesn't the HD100 chips run on both PAL and NTSC electrical current? I noticed that framerate and electrical input have some sort of connection and it works in divisions of 2.

For example, Cineframe24 on the Sony cameras is considered garbage because it runs at a shutter speed of 1/60 to match the current of the NTSC chips (60Hz...or mhz...or khz or what have ya) in a 60i mpeg2 stream. Cineframe25 However looks good because it runs at a shutter speed of 1/50 to match the current of the PAL chips (50Hz...blah...etc...) in a 50i mpeg2 stream.

24p cameras like the DVX100 and XL2 run at a shuter speed of 1/48. I know they have progressive chips so bear with me here. Some people have theorized that the chips in the XLH1 do 48i to achieve 24f

I was thinking... We know the JVC HD100 can do 24p, 25p, and 30p. We also know that the HD200 can do 24p, 30p and 60p (25p in the PAL version). If the HD200 can do up to 60 progressive frames per second, theoretically couldn't it do 24p, 25p, 30p, 48p, 50p and 60p? Even 12p?

If so, who do we bug at JVC to try and have these frame rates implemented into the camera?

Please feel free to tell me if I've lost my mind. Again I'm no tech-head when it comes to this stuff. I'm only theorizing from my limited knowledge.

Tony Tibbetts · April 27th, 2006, 04:21 PM

Hey Tony,

I don't think any one cares.

Tony Tibbetts · April 27th, 2006, 04:22 PM

Hey, thanks Tony. I was beginning to think my post fell on deaf ears.

Tony Tibbetts · April 27th, 2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts

Hey, thanks Tony. I was beginning to think my post fell on deaf ears.

No problem, I'm here to help.

Chad Terpstra · April 27th, 2006, 07:58 PM

Hmmm.... I hate it when posts go totally un-noticed.

At first I was wondering what you'd want 48p for in the first place. Then I started thinking that if one could shoot in 48p with the intention of converting to 24p (throwing half the frame away) they could essentially always be able to slow the footage down 50% by conforming to 24p if they later decided it was necessary. In other words, for dramatic things where you normally want 24p, you could shoot in 48p and get the same look & feel with the 1/48 shutter speed, BUT have the option of slow-motion in case you decide you want it -something that's not really possible when you have only 24 frames per second (at least it doesn't look great).

I think I might be with you, Tony. As far as 12p, though... Meh. It seems to me you can always speed things up. Not sure what others would say....

Chris Barcellos · April 27th, 2006, 09:06 PM

Tony, All the HD200 guys are at NAB looking at RED. :)

Tim Dashwood · April 27th, 2006, 10:20 PM

Hi Tony,

I apologize for the delay in response.
It is true that most of us are at NAB on flying home. I just got back this morning and I'm still catching up one thread at a time.
Unfortunately, I will be shooting for the next couple of weeks so I'll be out-of-the-loop again.

Anyway, back to your original question.

The HD100 and HD101 are both capable of capturing, encoding and recording 24P, 25P, & 30P as 720P HDV to tape. The camera is also capable of capturing and outputting 48P, 50P and 60P live as 720P to the analog component outs.
The HD200 and HD250 add the ability to encode and record 50P and 60P HDV to tape.
Therefore the HD200/250 will be capable of 720 24P, 25P, 30P, 50P & 60P.

The default shutter for the HD100 in 24P mode is 1/48th. In 30P mode it is 1/60 and 1/50 in 25P mode.

Luis Otero · April 27th, 2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

Hi Tony,

The HD200 and HD250 add the ability to encode and record 50P and 60P HDV to tape.
Therefore the HD200/250 will be capable of 720 24P, 25P, 30P, 50P & 60P.

Is this a firmware issue? Meaning, would JVC be able (even if we pay for it, I do not care) to upgrade the firmware of the HD100 to do the 60P encoding on tape?

Luis

Jake Strickbine · April 27th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis Otero

Is this a firmware issue? Meaning, would JVC be able (even if we pay for it, I do not care) to upgrade the firmware of the HD100 to do the 60P encoding on tape?

Luis

No- this will be the byproduct of a new MPEG codec utilized by the camera. Remember, though- that the HD100 still gives the option to record SD HDV in 50p and 60p to tape, which upscales very nicely to 720p. No, it's not as good as being able to do it all in 720p, but it's still a better option than you get with the majority of 1/3" cameras on the market. Still a very useful function.

Tim Dashwood · April 27th, 2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis Otero

Is this a firmware issue? Meaning, would JVC be able (even if we pay for it, I do not care) to upgrade the firmware of the HD100 to do the 60P encoding on tape?

Luis

No. I specifically asked this very same question yesterday. The answer is that the HD100A is a "mature" product. The HD100 price has not been affected by the release of the HD200 and HD250.
The primary target for the new models are 720P60 broadcasters, but the true 60P overcranking capability is something that a few of us filmmakers will value highly.

Tony Tibbetts · April 28th, 2006, 03:11 AM

Actually I was curious if those frame rates were possible, and if they are why not try to get JVC to implement them. This is all based on the idea of a 24p project. If the camera and codec can support those frame rates I'll be the first to buy am HD200. Hell, I'll probably buy it anyway, but it would be nice to have the variable options.

April 25th, 2006, 10:54 PM	#1
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	HD200 Framerate speculation I'm no technical wizard, I don't even know the correct terminology. Correct me if I'm mistaken but doesn't the HD100 chips run on both PAL and NTSC electrical current? I noticed that framerate and electrical input have some sort of connection and it works in divisions of 2. For example, Cineframe24 on the Sony cameras is considered garbage because it runs at a shutter speed of 1/60 to match the current of the NTSC chips (60Hz...or mhz...or khz or what have ya) in a 60i mpeg2 stream. Cineframe25 However looks good because it runs at a shutter speed of 1/50 to match the current of the PAL chips (50Hz...blah...etc...) in a 50i mpeg2 stream. 24p cameras like the DVX100 and XL2 run at a shuter speed of 1/48. I know they have progressive chips so bear with me here. Some people have theorized that the chips in the XLH1 do 48i to achieve 24f I was thinking... We know the JVC HD100 can do 24p, 25p, and 30p. We also know that the HD200 can do 24p, 30p and 60p (25p in the PAL version). If the HD200 can do up to 60 progressive frames per second, theoretically couldn't it do 24p, 25p, 30p, 48p, 50p and 60p? Even 12p? If so, who do we bug at JVC to try and have these frame rates implemented into the camera? Please feel free to tell me if I've lost my mind. Again I'm no tech-head when it comes to this stuff. I'm only theorizing from my limited knowledge.

April 27th, 2006, 09:06 PM	#6
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Tony, All the HD200 guys are at NAB looking at RED. :) __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 27th, 2006, 10:20 PM	#7
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Hi Tony, I apologize for the delay in response. It is true that most of us are at NAB on flying home. I just got back this morning and I'm still catching up one thread at a time. Unfortunately, I will be shooting for the next couple of weeks so I'll be out-of-the-loop again. Anyway, back to your original question. The HD100 and HD101 are both capable of capturing, encoding and recording 24P, 25P, & 30P as 720P HDV to tape. The camera is also capable of capturing and outputting 48P, 50P and 60P live as 720P to the analog component outs. The HD200 and HD250 add the ability to encode and record 50P and 60P HDV to tape. Therefore the HD200/250 will be capable of 720 24P, 25P, 30P, 50P & 60P. The default shutter for the HD100 in 24P mode is 1/48th. In 30P mode it is 1/60 and 1/50 in 25P mode. __________________ Tim Dashwood

April 27th, 2006, 04:21 PM	#2
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	Hey Tony, I don't think any one cares.

April 27th, 2006, 04:22 PM	#3
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	Hey, thanks Tony. I was beginning to think my post fell on deaf ears.

April 27th, 2006, 07:58 PM	#5
Chad Terpstra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 320	Hmmm.... I hate it when posts go totally un-noticed. At first I was wondering what you'd want 48p for in the first place. Then I started thinking that if one could shoot in 48p with the intention of converting to 24p (throwing half the frame away) they could essentially always be able to slow the footage down 50% by conforming to 24p if they later decided it was necessary. In other words, for dramatic things where you normally want 24p, you could shoot in 48p and get the same look & feel with the 1/48 shutter speed, BUT have the option of slow-motion in case you decide you want it -something that's not really possible when you have only 24 frames per second (at least it doesn't look great). I think I might be with you, Tony. As far as 12p, though... Meh. It seems to me you can always speed things up. Not sure what others would say....

April 28th, 2006, 03:11 AM	#11
Tony Tibbetts Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 385	Actually I was curious if those frame rates were possible, and if they are why not try to get JVC to implement them. This is all based on the idea of a 24p project. If the camera and codec can support those frame rates I'll be the first to buy am HD200. Hell, I'll probably buy it anyway, but it would be nice to have the variable options.