ALERT: Power OFF before changing Firewire or switching HDV/DV at DVinfo.net

Tim Dashwood · April 11th, 2006, 04:45 PM

We've had quite a few reports lately of blown IEEE1394 Firewire circuits in the HD100/101.
The culprit seems to be the fact that 6-pin to 6-pin firewire cables carry enough bus power from your computer to short the FW circuit in the camera if you attempt to insert the plug backwards or on an angle.

It seems JVC is now including a Caution sheet with new cameras and "A" upgrades warning of this danger. The warning was always in the manual on page 54, but never in such clear terms.

To avoid a possible blown circuit and required repair JVC suggests that you:

Turn the power of both devices OFF before connecting the IEEE1394 Firewire cable.
Do not connect the IEEE1394 Firewire cable under "the condition of static electricity."
Turn the power of both devices OFF before changing the IEEE1394 switch from/to HDV/DV.

For extra assurance, I would also recommend the use of a firewire port isolator.

Stephen L. Noe · April 11th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Another stellar suggestion (made by someone) is to get a 6 pin to 4 pin connector. If your wokstation has an iLink (4pin) connector you can avoid any problem by connecting to the 4 pin which doesn't carry any bus power whatsoever.

otherwise the "caution" is a word to the wise....

Greg Boston · April 11th, 2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Another stellar suggestion is to get a 6 pin to 4 pin connector. If your wokstation has an iLink (4pin) connector you can avoid any problem by connecting to the 4 pin which doesn't carry any bus power whatsoever.

otherwise the "caution" is a word to the wise....

Very few workstations have a 4 pin firewire because they have enough power to run external devices so they use a 6 pin connector. The Compaq laptop I am using now has a 4 pin, but it's the only computer I have seen with a 4 pin. I suspect that they didn't want the additional battery drain by trying to supply external power.

I agree with Tim. On 6 pin to 6 pin cables, a port isolator is a good idea.

-gb-

Laszlo Horvath · April 11th, 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Very few workstations have a 4 pin firewire ...
I agree with Tim. On 6 pin to 6 pin cables, a port isolator is a good idea.

-gb-

With Edius NX HD the supplied in-out panel has 4pin iLink

Laszlo

Stephen L. Noe · April 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Very few workstations have a 4 pin firewire because they have enough power to run external devices so they use a 6 pin connector. The Compaq laptop I am using now has a 4 pin, but it's the only computer I have seen with a 4 pin. I suspect that they didn't want the additional battery drain by trying to supply external power.

I agree with Tim. On 6 pin to 6 pin cables, a port isolator is a good idea.

-gb-

Also with any Sony workstation there is always an iLink, but your right, not all computers have 4pin iLink connections. For those that do, it's wise to use it.

all the best guys..

Tim Holtermann · April 11th, 2006, 11:19 PM

I'm a big fan of this camera but let's be honest...this should have been fixed with the "A" upgrade. A little paper with a warning on it is hardly enough. If you manufacture a camera that accepts a "hot" bus powered 6 pin cable then make sure your hardware can handle it.

Nate Weaver · April 11th, 2006, 11:54 PM

The hardware can handle it. Follow the instructions. Don't hotswap. If JVC tells you don't do it, and then you do it and you break it, now who's fault is that?

If it gets your goose that much, then buy a 6pin to 6pin that doesn't pass power.

Tim Holtermann · April 12th, 2006, 11:46 AM

No the hardware can't handle it. I'm all for following instructions, in fact I'm one of the few that actually reads a manual before using something. I've never blown my HD100 but I can see how it could easily happen in a production enviroment.

This isn't a home camera. It's marketed as a "PRO" camera and I would guess to be used as such. Do you hear about other Pro cameras blowing their hardware out when plugged into a Firewire port? Sometimes during hectic production there are many hands touching this gear and things can happen. Equipment that is designed for production should be able to take some abuse.

This camera is great, I love it, but it's not without some design issues. Let's not make excuses and say that a piece of paper is a fix.

P.S. But you are right. People should read the warning and follow the instructions.

Chris Hurd · April 12th, 2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Do you hear about other Pro cameras blowing their hardware out when plugged into a Firewire port?

Just this weekend at our Texas HD Shootout, we had a Z1 which fried its FireWire connection (most likely operator error due to hot-swapping; I'm just glad I never touched it).

The manufacturer's advice to simply not hot-swap is solid. Since it is a professional camera, then it's safe to assume it'll be operated professionally. If JVC idiot-proofed everything on the camera, then it would have only a zoom rocker and a rec button. Frankly I don't think there's anything wrong with taking some responsibility for one's own actions and actually powering the gear down. In a professional environment that should be standard operating procedure anyway.

The piece of paper is a good cautionary warning, but a responsible camera operator and a working professional would never need to read it.

Jiri Bakala · April 12th, 2006, 12:07 PM

Let's not split hair here. There are and were issues with this camera and for the most part JVC addressed them. In "pro" production environment cameras are not used as spooler decks. End of story. So, if anyone needs to use their camera that way, and it could happen, they'd better follow the instructions. The notion that this should have been 'fixed' in the A upgrade is just plain silly. And by the way, this is not just a "JVC problem", as I mentioned before, we had this happen to a SONY XDCAM deck and as much as I like Macs, it might be rather an Apple problem, if anything. Perhaps it is just the result of trying to accommodate everyone at once. Some demand power through FW, others want hot-swappability - the result is a risk of power short that could damage the circuitry. Apparently, we cannot have it all... Pick you battles and compromises you can live with...:-)

Tim Dashwood · April 12th, 2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Holtermann

A little paper with a warning on it is hardly enough.

The warning was always in the manual on page 54 "Connecting the IEEE1394 Cable," but never in such clear terms.
Quote from manual: "Connect the cables and set the switches with the power on the device OFF."

I think there are simply too many cameras coming back with blown circuits (that JVC has repaired under warranty) and the new caution sheet is just a "friendly reminder" that will probably also relieve them of responsibility in the future.

Kaspar Stromme · April 12th, 2006, 01:04 PM

Seems like a 4-pin connector on the camera would have avoided this issue. Anyone know why they put the 6-pin there in the first place? (power an external HD perhaps? The FireStores don't mention bus power though)

Tim Dashwood · April 12th, 2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaspar Stromme

Seems like a 4-pin connector on the camera would have avoided this issue. Anyone know why they put the 6-pin there in the first place? (power an external HD perhaps? The FireStores don't mention bus power though)

The 4-pins fall out too easily when you are tethered in a production situation.

Tim Holtermann · April 12th, 2006, 01:58 PM

We all have valid points....

I've used many pro cameras and have NEVER had to power them down to make a connection. Why doesn't you computer and other firewire hardware blow up when you hot swap? You guys are forgetting something - The firewire specification calls for HOT SWAP. This means that JVC is not manufacturing their equipment to the correct specifications as it should be able to handle a firewire cable with current in it.

Also remember that the firewire cable is used for more then dumping your tape contents. So the fact that you use an external deck to offload footage does not excuse the ease of blowing this hardware.

This can't be fun for JVC either. It makes for bad press, ties up their service centers and cost them money when replacing via Warranty. Why not just improve the circuits on the next rev? If we as customers just accept bad design and don't provide feedback how can we expect them to be improved?

Barry Green · April 12th, 2006, 02:14 PM

It's not limited to JVC though. Yes firewire is engineered to be hot-swappable, but the simple fact is that there are reports from HD100 owners, DVX owners, FX1 owners, and Z1 owners that all say they've blown their firewire ports by hot-swapping.

And all those other cameras have 4-pin ports. Most of the reports of blown firewire ports seem to come from Mac users; I don't know if it's because most Mac laptops have 6-pin ports, vs. PC laptops that typically feature 4-pin ports?

So I don't know exactly what to say here other than: whether you like it or not, whether it's convenient or not, it certainly seems wise to shut the camera down before connecting/disconnecting the firewire cable.

April 11th, 2006, 04:45 PM	#1
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	ALERT: Power OFF before changing Firewire or switching HDV/DV We've had quite a few reports lately of blown IEEE1394 Firewire circuits in the HD100/101. The culprit seems to be the fact that 6-pin to 6-pin firewire cables carry enough bus power from your computer to short the FW circuit in the camera if you attempt to insert the plug backwards or on an angle. It seems JVC is now including a Caution sheet with new cameras and "A" upgrades warning of this danger. The warning was always in the manual on page 54, but never in such clear terms. To avoid a possible blown circuit and required repair JVC suggests that you: Turn the power of both devices OFF before connecting the IEEE1394 Firewire cable. Do not connect the IEEE1394 Firewire cable under "the condition of static electricity." Turn the power of both devices OFF before changing the IEEE1394 switch from/to HDV/DV. For extra assurance, I would also recommend the use of a firewire port isolator. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Tim Dashwood

April 11th, 2006, 05:12 PM	#2
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Another stellar suggestion (made by someone) is to get a 6 pin to 4 pin connector. If your wokstation has an iLink (4pin) connector you can avoid any problem by connecting to the 4 pin which doesn't carry any bus power whatsoever. otherwise the "caution" is a word to the wise.... Last edited by Stephen L. Noe; April 11th, 2006 at 07:37 PM.

April 11th, 2006, 11:54 PM	#7
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	The hardware can handle it. Follow the instructions. Don't hotswap. If JVC tells you don't do it, and then you do it and you break it, now who's fault is that? If it gets your goose that much, then buy a 6pin to 6pin that doesn't pass power. __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

April 12th, 2006, 12:07 PM	#10
Jiri Bakala Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kelowna BC Canada Posts: 706	Let's not split hair here. There are and were issues with this camera and for the most part JVC addressed them. In "pro" production environment cameras are not used as spooler decks. End of story. So, if anyone needs to use their camera that way, and it could happen, they'd better follow the instructions. The notion that this should have been 'fixed' in the A upgrade is just plain silly. And by the way, this is not just a "JVC problem", as I mentioned before, we had this happen to a SONY XDCAM deck and as much as I like Macs, it might be rather an Apple problem, if anything. Perhaps it is just the result of trying to accommodate everyone at once. Some demand power through FW, others want hot-swappability - the result is a risk of power short that could damage the circuitry. Apparently, we cannot have it all... Pick you battles and compromises you can live with...:-) __________________ www.ascentfilms.com

April 11th, 2006, 11:19 PM	#6
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	I'm a big fan of this camera but let's be honest...this should have been fixed with the "A" upgrade. A little paper with a warning on it is hardly enough. If you manufacture a camera that accepts a "hot" bus powered 6 pin cable then make sure your hardware can handle it.

April 12th, 2006, 11:46 AM	#8
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	No the hardware can't handle it. I'm all for following instructions, in fact I'm one of the few that actually reads a manual before using something. I've never blown my HD100 but I can see how it could easily happen in a production enviroment. This isn't a home camera. It's marketed as a "PRO" camera and I would guess to be used as such. Do you hear about other Pro cameras blowing their hardware out when plugged into a Firewire port? Sometimes during hectic production there are many hands touching this gear and things can happen. Equipment that is designed for production should be able to take some abuse. This camera is great, I love it, but it's not without some design issues. Let's not make excuses and say that a piece of paper is a fix. P.S. But you are right. People should read the warning and follow the instructions.

April 12th, 2006, 01:04 PM	#12
Kaspar Stromme Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 36	Seems like a 4-pin connector on the camera would have avoided this issue. Anyone know why they put the 6-pin there in the first place? (power an external HD perhaps? The FireStores don't mention bus power though)

April 12th, 2006, 01:58 PM	#14
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	We all have valid points.... I've used many pro cameras and have NEVER had to power them down to make a connection. Why doesn't you computer and other firewire hardware blow up when you hot swap? You guys are forgetting something - The firewire specification calls for HOT SWAP. This means that JVC is not manufacturing their equipment to the correct specifications as it should be able to handle a firewire cable with current in it. Also remember that the firewire cable is used for more then dumping your tape contents. So the fact that you use an external deck to offload footage does not excuse the ease of blowing this hardware. This can't be fun for JVC either. It makes for bad press, ties up their service centers and cost them money when replacing via Warranty. Why not just improve the circuits on the next rev? If we as customers just accept bad design and don't provide feedback how can we expect them to be improved?

April 12th, 2006, 02:14 PM	#15
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	It's not limited to JVC though. Yes firewire is engineered to be hot-swappable, but the simple fact is that there are reports from HD100 owners, DVX owners, FX1 owners, and Z1 owners that all say they've blown their firewire ports by hot-swapping. And all those other cameras have 4-pin ports. Most of the reports of blown firewire ports seem to come from Mac users; I don't know if it's because most Mac laptops have 6-pin ports, vs. PC laptops that typically feature 4-pin ports? So I don't know exactly what to say here other than: whether you like it or not, whether it's convenient or not, it certainly seems wise to shut the camera down before connecting/disconnecting the firewire cable.