Using the JVC deck or not?

Jeff Morrissette · April 11th, 2006, 05:27 PM

Nothing. I just found out I'm missing some stuff on the camera too. I wonder if somehow I got a demo unit. I'll call JVC tomorrow. thanks guys.

I'll let you know what happens. I was hoping I was being an idiot. 8P

Jeff Morrissette · April 12th, 2006, 12:59 PM

Ok, don't know what happened but today everything worked. Luminere and the deck in dv mode. finally something.

The next question is, since lumiere doesnt' carry time code, ugh.

Is there a way to have the firewire output dv from a hdv tape on the jvc deck?

If not can I clone hdv through firewire to a dsr 11 and carry timecode?

or is it just easier to run it through a y.u.v. converter to firewire and control the deck serial-ly. A messier option but one I'm sure would work.

Basically I want to log in avid or final cut and will worry about finish later.

Tim Dashwood · April 12th, 2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Morrissette

Ok, don't know what happened but today everything worked. Luminere and the deck in dv mode. finally something.

The next question is, since lumiere doesnt' carry time code, ugh.

Is there a way to have the firewire output dv from a hdv tape on the jvc deck?

If not can I clone hdv through firewire to a dsr 11 and carry timecode?

or is it just easier to run it through a y.u.v. converter to firewire and control the deck serial-ly. A messier option but one I'm sure would work.

Basically I want to log in avid or final cut and will worry about finish later.

If you want an offline/online with timecode scenario for standard def, then you should get the DecklinkSP. I tested mine with the deck the other day and worked out a 720P24 downconverted to NTSC TIMECODE workflow using RS-422.
If you want to offline at low-rez and then re-capture at HD rez, you will want one of the higher end Decklink cards or Kona cards.

Jeff Morrissette · April 12th, 2006, 01:21 PM

THanks, I know kona but not too familar with decklink. I'll check it out.

Dave Beaty · April 19th, 2006, 10:13 PM

We've been very unhappy with our BR-HD50 VTR's. We own two. We've had two replacements, and one sent in for factory servicing. Problems mainly occur with RS-422 usage. These include shut downs during remote control that result in "playback inhibit" errors, "overheat" errors. Not only that, the units switch into PAL mode when these crashes occur. If we try to capture about 20 clips its almost guaranteed.

The factory serviced unit no longer crashes with the overheat error but continues to crash with the playback inhibit one. They set the temp senor to a higher preset trigger value. JVC support has been good, but it seems they really don't know what Japan JVC is doing to fix these issues. It's sort of a, well lets hope they fix your problem in the next firmware, kind of thing. At least that's how I read the response.

To compound things, we just got an RMA brand new unit from our dealer to test. It immediately ate and destroyed a tape from a doc on Guatemala we are producing! The first tape put in the unit. Oh for the good ol' days of BetaSP. I know, it's like "oh! you put in a very valuable tape in a brand new unit without testing it first and making a copy?" ...Com'on!

I really don't know the answer to pro- production in JVC HDV. The camera's rock but the editor's and VTRs are left really in the lurch.

Dave Beaty
Dreamtime

Jeff Morrissette · April 19th, 2006, 10:57 PM

Do you think that gop issues are causing that. I been kinda wondering how one can batch catpure from a deck that is reading muliple frames together.

Tim Dashwood · April 20th, 2006, 03:38 AM

Someone mentioned a couple weeks ago that the BR-50 was also being accepted by JVC for "A" updating. Has anyone confirmed this?

David Dessel · April 20th, 2006, 08:45 AM

We're in the process of editing our first HD project with the 50 deck. We are using the Kona LH card and capturing the 24P via analouge component HD. The sound and picture are fantastic.

The Kona card is controlling the deck during batch capture using RS-422. So far, the deck has reset itself two times with an "overheat" error. When I called JVC the rep seemed to be aware of the issue. The deck has to go back to JVC for an update and this takes at least 72 hours in their shop. I am dissappointed to hear that the problem might not be completely solved after the servicing.

It seems the deck error occurs if the tape shuttles into an area where there is no recording. Avoiding the "capture now" function, which could prevent this is the way to go, in theory.

With regard to using a Firestore as an alternative to the deck, I would be very cautious about this. Last year we shot a reality TV show in 24P with three FS-4's and DVX-100's. Overall they worked great. But every time that we have used these units, they always end up recording one or two corrupt files. This is not predictable. We recently shot a large project in SD mode on the HD-100. On that job the FS-4's recorded five or six corrupt files out of six hours of recorded media. Always, always roll a tape back-up. This way you get the best of out the DTE without the worries of this volatile approach.

-Dave Dessel

Dave Beaty · April 20th, 2006, 08:57 PM

David,

It's good to see someone using the same setup as us. I've been communicating with JVC southeast about any newer firmware updates to our units. The one we had serviced wasn't with an official update, but one the engineers did to reduce the overheat errors.

Have you had any problems capturing 480i downconversions via FCPro? There seems to be a genlock-sync type issue that log and capture doesn't always lock too?

I'd love to hear about an official upgrade. All in all, the decks work fine, aside from the RS-422 probs and the one that ate our tape, out of the box.

JVC has been very upfront and helpful about these problems. I've found that if you make the effort to communicate, they will help out.

I wish they would make a more "pro" version of the BR-50.

Heck, we'd even beta test it, which is what I feel like I'm doing right now.

Dave Beaty

Dave Beaty · April 20th, 2006, 09:02 PM

Oh one more thing...

We've had a real issue with operators capturing correct audio levels. Almost all of the sound we've been capturing is too low.

I've done some testing on the units and it seems the LED displays are misleading compared to other cameras. Audio is coming in around 50% norm. Auto limiters also seem pretty useless as they really breath to much for professional use. Our operators are being very conservative with the LED VU meters, yet the headroom between too low and clipping is almost a hair on the faders.

Anyone else?

Dave

David Dessel · April 21st, 2006, 04:47 PM

Hey Dave,

We havn't done any downconversions with the deck using FCP, so I don't have any info on that question. We could not batch capture downconverted output into our four year old Avid Meridian system. It seems machine control is impossible. In general, we have found that using firewire has been problem free in SD mode or capturing HDV with DVHS Cap.

With regards to the sound levels, I agree that the camera's meters persuade one to record on the low side. That being said, we have gotten great sound when running the audio through a mixer and then to the Kona LH card.

Best,

Dave Dessel

Jeff Morrissette · April 21st, 2006, 05:17 PM

I think i just read in the manuel that the component out on the br0 does not do anything higher than sd. Is that true? I know the camera hd out with its' component.

If that's true that's lame.

I hope I misread.

Anyhow I'm sure there will be some kick but converters coming out soon enough.

I feel like we are back in 1996 when DV first started to appear and the whole analoge digital thing was throwing everything off. Now it's sd vs HD changing everything.

Hope I don't make the same mistake I did back then. ;)

Dave Beaty · April 22nd, 2006, 10:57 PM

The BR-50 does do format conversions on the analog outputs! It's sweet. It can convert just about thing from 720p to 1080i, 720p to 480p or 480i. So it rocks. But we've had problems capturing the output to FCP. If I shoot with the HD100, 720p and try to output analog component to 480i (NTSC), the Kona and FCP definately have a problem. FCP spins with the pin wheel of death (PWD). For about 30-40 seconds before it begins capturing. Then it captures fine. Same PWD when I hit ESC.

If we disengage genlock on the Kona control panel, and shut down FCP, and then switch Kona's genlock to freerun Genlock SOMETIMES it begins capturing correctly with no PWD. Wierd. Capturing BetaSP NTSC vid works fine with no PWD.

I can record the BR-50's downconverted video to BetaSP no prob.

I can also capture the BR-50's 720p output to FCP no prob aside from the deck crashes listed previously. I guarantee anyone using the RS-422 on a first production BR-50 will see the "overheat" or "playback inhibit" and PAL 50 errors eventually. It crops up after about 10-20 captures. Not just in blank tape areas. But during true video captures.

Rob Stiff · April 23rd, 2006, 09:11 AM

This may indirectly help...

If you don't have lots of video:
Use a KONA HD input and go analog HD out from the camera
into the KONA card live. Use a better compression setting and get better
looking video.

At last year's NAB you didn't see anyone at JVC's booth playing back
any HD-100U tape footage from the deck or cameras on display.
The live HD out from the cameras looked great on display.
It's still cheaper to buy a G5 with a Kona card & capture live
from the camera and then burn on Blu-Ray than to buy a decent
HDCAM recording deck. Maybe that will change this week at NAB?

I have the JVC deck and it is pretty good. Timecode is maintained
using capture in HDVXDV. Nate Weaver helped me fill in the blanks
on getting the 24p footage editable in realtime in FCP. Just do a conversion
using AIC with Streamclip. Just make sure you use the fix timecode breaks
before you convert.

Having the deck would seem more stable than using a firestore device.
Can the firestore product lockup on you during recording? Then you have
to go back to the tape to capture. Other than a ENG news crew, who
would be on such a timecrunch to need firestore?

Gary Morris McBeath · April 23rd, 2006, 12:10 PM

Rob:

What is the process and hardware used for your suggestion to burn to Blu-Ray?

The Blu-Ray decks I'm aware of are $10-15K, and only do 1080i, not 720p.

Gary

April 20th, 2006, 03:38 AM	#37
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Someone mentioned a couple weeks ago that the BR-50 was also being accepted by JVC for "A" updating. Has anyone confirmed this? __________________ Tim Dashwood

April 20th, 2006, 08:45 AM	#38
David Dessel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 41	My Deck Too We're in the process of editing our first HD project with the 50 deck. We are using the Kona LH card and capturing the 24P via analouge component HD. The sound and picture are fantastic. The Kona card is controlling the deck during batch capture using RS-422. So far, the deck has reset itself two times with an "overheat" error. When I called JVC the rep seemed to be aware of the issue. The deck has to go back to JVC for an update and this takes at least 72 hours in their shop. I am dissappointed to hear that the problem might not be completely solved after the servicing. It seems the deck error occurs if the tape shuttles into an area where there is no recording. Avoiding the "capture now" function, which could prevent this is the way to go, in theory. With regard to using a Firestore as an alternative to the deck, I would be very cautious about this. Last year we shot a reality TV show in 24P with three FS-4's and DVX-100's. Overall they worked great. But every time that we have used these units, they always end up recording one or two corrupt files. This is not predictable. We recently shot a large project in SD mode on the HD-100. On that job the FS-4's recorded five or six corrupt files out of six hours of recorded media. Always, always roll a tape back-up. This way you get the best of out the DTE without the worries of this volatile approach. -Dave Dessel

April 21st, 2006, 04:47 PM	#41
David Dessel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 41	Hey Dave, We havn't done any downconversions with the deck using FCP, so I don't have any info on that question. We could not batch capture downconverted output into our four year old Avid Meridian system. It seems machine control is impossible. In general, we have found that using firewire has been problem free in SD mode or capturing HDV with DVHS Cap. With regards to the sound levels, I agree that the camera's meters persuade one to record on the low side. That being said, we have gotten great sound when running the audio through a mixer and then to the Kona LH card. Best, Dave Dessel Last edited by David Dessel; April 22nd, 2006 at 08:52 AM.

April 11th, 2006, 05:27 PM	#31
Jeff Morrissette Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: venice, ca Posts: 83	Nothing. I just found out I'm missing some stuff on the camera too. I wonder if somehow I got a demo unit. I'll call JVC tomorrow. thanks guys. I'll let you know what happens. I was hoping I was being an idiot. 8P

April 12th, 2006, 12:59 PM	#32
Jeff Morrissette Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: venice, ca Posts: 83	Ok, don't know what happened but today everything worked. Luminere and the deck in dv mode. finally something. The next question is, since lumiere doesnt' carry time code, ugh. Is there a way to have the firewire output dv from a hdv tape on the jvc deck? If not can I clone hdv through firewire to a dsr 11 and carry timecode? or is it just easier to run it through a y.u.v. converter to firewire and control the deck serial-ly. A messier option but one I'm sure would work. Basically I want to log in avid or final cut and will worry about finish later.

April 12th, 2006, 01:21 PM	#34
Jeff Morrissette Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: venice, ca Posts: 83	THanks, I know kona but not too familar with decklink. I'll check it out.

April 19th, 2006, 10:13 PM	#35
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	We've been very unhappy with our BR-HD50 VTR's. We own two. We've had two replacements, and one sent in for factory servicing. Problems mainly occur with RS-422 usage. These include shut downs during remote control that result in "playback inhibit" errors, "overheat" errors. Not only that, the units switch into PAL mode when these crashes occur. If we try to capture about 20 clips its almost guaranteed. The factory serviced unit no longer crashes with the overheat error but continues to crash with the playback inhibit one. They set the temp senor to a higher preset trigger value. JVC support has been good, but it seems they really don't know what Japan JVC is doing to fix these issues. It's sort of a, well lets hope they fix your problem in the next firmware, kind of thing. At least that's how I read the response. To compound things, we just got an RMA brand new unit from our dealer to test. It immediately ate and destroyed a tape from a doc on Guatemala we are producing! The first tape put in the unit. Oh for the good ol' days of BetaSP. I know, it's like "oh! you put in a very valuable tape in a brand new unit without testing it first and making a copy?" ...Com'on! I really don't know the answer to pro- production in JVC HDV. The camera's rock but the editor's and VTRs are left really in the lurch. Dave Beaty Dreamtime

April 19th, 2006, 10:57 PM	#36
Jeff Morrissette Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: venice, ca Posts: 83	Do you think that gop issues are causing that. I been kinda wondering how one can batch catpure from a deck that is reading muliple frames together.

April 20th, 2006, 08:57 PM	#39
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	David, It's good to see someone using the same setup as us. I've been communicating with JVC southeast about any newer firmware updates to our units. The one we had serviced wasn't with an official update, but one the engineers did to reduce the overheat errors. Have you had any problems capturing 480i downconversions via FCPro? There seems to be a genlock-sync type issue that log and capture doesn't always lock too? I'd love to hear about an official upgrade. All in all, the decks work fine, aside from the RS-422 probs and the one that ate our tape, out of the box. JVC has been very upfront and helpful about these problems. I've found that if you make the effort to communicate, they will help out. I wish they would make a more "pro" version of the BR-50. Heck, we'd even beta test it, which is what I feel like I'm doing right now. Dave Beaty

April 20th, 2006, 09:02 PM	#40
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	Oh one more thing... We've had a real issue with operators capturing correct audio levels. Almost all of the sound we've been capturing is too low. I've done some testing on the units and it seems the LED displays are misleading compared to other cameras. Audio is coming in around 50% norm. Auto limiters also seem pretty useless as they really breath to much for professional use. Our operators are being very conservative with the LED VU meters, yet the headroom between too low and clipping is almost a hair on the faders. Anyone else? Dave

April 21st, 2006, 05:17 PM	#42
Jeff Morrissette Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: venice, ca Posts: 83	I think i just read in the manuel that the component out on the br0 does not do anything higher than sd. Is that true? I know the camera hd out with its' component. If that's true that's lame. I hope I misread. Anyhow I'm sure there will be some kick but converters coming out soon enough. I feel like we are back in 1996 when DV first started to appear and the whole analoge digital thing was throwing everything off. Now it's sd vs HD changing everything. Hope I don't make the same mistake I did back then. ;)

April 22nd, 2006, 10:57 PM	#43
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	The BR-50 does do format conversions on the analog outputs! It's sweet. It can convert just about thing from 720p to 1080i, 720p to 480p or 480i. So it rocks. But we've had problems capturing the output to FCP. If I shoot with the HD100, 720p and try to output analog component to 480i (NTSC), the Kona and FCP definately have a problem. FCP spins with the pin wheel of death (PWD). For about 30-40 seconds before it begins capturing. Then it captures fine. Same PWD when I hit ESC. If we disengage genlock on the Kona control panel, and shut down FCP, and then switch Kona's genlock to freerun Genlock SOMETIMES it begins capturing correctly with no PWD. Wierd. Capturing BetaSP NTSC vid works fine with no PWD. I can record the BR-50's downconverted video to BetaSP no prob. I can also capture the BR-50's 720p output to FCP no prob aside from the deck crashes listed previously. I guarantee anyone using the RS-422 on a first production BR-50 will see the "overheat" or "playback inhibit" and PAL 50 errors eventually. It crops up after about 10-20 captures. Not just in blank tape areas. But during true video captures.

April 23rd, 2006, 09:11 AM	#44
Rob Stiff Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 173	This may indirectly help... If you don't have lots of video: Use a KONA HD input and go analog HD out from the camera into the KONA card live. Use a better compression setting and get better looking video. At last year's NAB you didn't see anyone at JVC's booth playing back any HD-100U tape footage from the deck or cameras on display. The live HD out from the cameras looked great on display. It's still cheaper to buy a G5 with a Kona card & capture live from the camera and then burn on Blu-Ray than to buy a decent HDCAM recording deck. Maybe that will change this week at NAB? I have the JVC deck and it is pretty good. Timecode is maintained using capture in HDVXDV. Nate Weaver helped me fill in the blanks on getting the 24p footage editable in realtime in FCP. Just do a conversion using AIC with Streamclip. Just make sure you use the fix timecode breaks before you convert. Having the deck would seem more stable than using a firestore device. Can the firestore product lockup on you during recording? Then you have to go back to the tape to capture. Other than a ENG news crew, who would be on such a timecrunch to need firestore?

April 23rd, 2006, 12:10 PM	#45
Gary Morris McBeath Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Steilacoom Washington Posts: 72	Rob: What is the process and hardware used for your suggestion to burn to Blu-Ray? The Blu-Ray decks I'm aware of are $10-15K, and only do 1080i, not 720p. Gary