Smoke, Haze, Fire, Wind, Water... and HDV? at DVinfo.net

Joel Aaron · March 13th, 2006, 02:02 AM

What's your experience with smoke, haze, fog, smoke machines, fast moving water and high motion / action in general.

If there's one thing I keep hearing over and over is HDV falls apart under these circumstances. Do you have footage of it falling apart. Anyone here film concerts etc.?

Vincent Rozenberg · March 13th, 2006, 03:44 AM

Shot with my XL-H1 to test that out: www.vincentrozenberg.com/files/tree.zip

Captured with FCP (25F mode so 50i). Judge for yourself..

Marc Colemont · March 13th, 2006, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel Aaron

What's your experience with smoke, haze, fog, smoke machines, fast moving water and high motion / action in general.

If there's one thing I keep hearing over and over is HDV falls apart under these circumstances. Do you have footage of it falling apart. Anyone here film concerts etc.?

Hi Joel,

Why would it fall apart? I do mostly concerts and events with the camera.
My customers tell me the footage looks awesome. If you do a search on this forum you will get across some footage.

Vincent Rozenberg · March 13th, 2006, 04:33 AM

@ Marc: I do understand Joel's concerns, since HDV has a low bitrate, difficult textures etcetera should be more of a problem for the codec. This is basically the same with DV if you compare that with digibeta for example. Bit in reality I'm very pleased with the results of the codec, even under difficult circumstances, like my example video.

Steve Mullen · March 13th, 2006, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

@ Marc: I do understand Joel's concerns, since HDV has a low bitrate, difficult textures etcetera should be more of a problem for the codec.

There are 2 HDVs: 720p30 which is a high bit-rate given it's only 30fps. It's equal to the same compression-ratio as ATSC (16-18Mbps) 720p60 would have if it were about 36Mbps.

Then there is 1080i HDV at 25Mbps compared to ATSC (18Mbps) 1080i.

Thus the compression ratio order -- from low to high is:

720p30 HDV = XDCAM 1080i HD @ 35Mbps < 1080i HDV < 720p60 @ 16-18Mbps < 1080i @ 18Mbps

If you compare 720p24 HDV it has EFFECTIVE data rate of about 46Mbps verses the 24PN DVCPRO HD data rate of 37Mbps. So 720p24 HDV is about 25% less compressed than 24PN DVCPRO HD.

>>>> Sound has been removed from these bit rates. <<<<

So your concerns about HDV are founded upon nothing but comparing raw data rates without taking into consideration either frame rate or codec compression efficiency.

Sign-up at videosystems.com for my HDV@Work Newsletter. Monday, a two part series, will begin on your very important question.

Vincent Rozenberg · March 13th, 2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

So your concerns about HDV are founded upon nothing but comparing raw data rates without taking into consideration either frame rate or codec compression efficiency.

No, my concerns (which are no concerns since I'm very pleased with the results as I get with my H1 and i the past the Z1) are very very simply based upon comparing stills from DVCpro100 footage, HDCAM/uncompressed footage and HDV footage. IMHO the fears for HDV is a bit overdone then and comparable with the so called fears people had a couple of years ago when DV became a regular used acquisition format....

Meryem Ersoz · March 13th, 2006, 08:43 AM

joel: hdv handles these just fine. if anything, hdv is way better than dv at handling fine mist or fog scenarios, perhaps because of its increasd resolution and enhanced color space. playback can be stuttery, depending on the speed of your machine, but the output is fine.

i can't speak for the JVC, but here's some footage from an FX-1 (1080i v. 720p for the JVC) that was directed towards testing these very issues (fog, moving water). a low-light concert environment may be quite different from a nature environment, but this will give you some idea.

warning: biiig file, so be patient. also, the mist and moving water you're looking for is in the 2nd half of the file, so you might want to scroll through some of the desert scene stuff.....

http://ia300119.us.archive.org/1/ite...ide642x360.mov

Joel Aaron · March 13th, 2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

Why would it fall apart? I do mostly concerts and events with the camera.
My customers tell me the footage looks awesome. If you do a search on this forum you will get across some footage.

I haven't personally witnessed any issues with the codec, but there are people swearing up and down that "HDV can't handle this stuff and you better buy an HVX if you do concerts with haze and fog... and OMG don't shoot babbling brooks".

I know there has been macroblocking issues with the Sony's sometimes. I just didn't know if people were seeing it with the JVC's or if 6F GOP had overcome previous issues.

Steven Thomas · March 13th, 2006, 12:10 PM

Joel,
I guess it's time we fire up my light show and fog machine !

Later this week, if you're up for it, bring over your HVX200
and we will do more testing.

I have yet to see any macroblock compression issues.

I'm looking forward to Steve's newsletter.

By the way, Steve's HD100 handbook has a good section on MPEG.

Joel Aaron · March 13th, 2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Joel,
Later this week, if you're up for it, bring over your HVX200
and we will do more testing.

My camera will hopefully be in the mail by then. Somehow I'm guessing yours will shoot it just fine. It's sure nice to figure out the truth first and not have to rely on Internet whispers.

Steve Mullen · March 13th, 2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

MHO the fears for HDV is a bit overdone then and comparable with the so called fears people had a couple of years ago when DV became a regular used acquisition format....

I'm sorry -- I didn't mean YOUR fears! I should have said the FUD raised about HDV are so similar to the FUD that came with DV. On the Avid list a guy just claimed again -- after 5 years -- that I was an idiot because I claimed DV was better than BetaSP. Clearly he still thinks I'm wrong!

The truth is that the first generation of DV did have compression arifacts that hurt compositing compared to BetaSP. Likewise, long GOP HDV does have MPEG-2 artifacts on fast/complex motion. Folks are correct to worry about this! Which is why Sony is moving up to 35Mbps with XDCAM HD.

However, the second generation DV had very few artifacts and folks went on to composite with little or no problems. Likewise, short GOP users have been happily working for 3 years and we tend to get REALLY PISSED when FUD gets attached to 720p30 HDV.

Which suddenly makes me wonder -- what would long GOP 720p60 at 19Mbps look like? Doubling the frame rate "should" require 2X more compression. But, ATSC 720p60 is carried via 15-frame GOPs at 19Mbps. Remember, progressive video has a much higher compression efficiency! So, in theory with a REALLY great MPEG-2 encoder -- 720p60 could be recorded to MiniDv tape!

Could we see a 720p60 ProHD camcorder announced at NAB?

Could an MPEG-2 encoder that ran 2X faster be put into the HD100? Could it be put into a handheld camcorder. It's going to run really hot and consume tons of power. Will it only go into the 7000?

March 13th, 2006, 02:02 AM	#1
Joel Aaron Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ - USA Posts: 300	Smoke, Haze, Fire, Wind, Water... and HDV? What's your experience with smoke, haze, fog, smoke machines, fast moving water and high motion / action in general. If there's one thing I keep hearing over and over is HDV falls apart under these circumstances. Do you have footage of it falling apart. Anyone here film concerts etc.?

March 13th, 2006, 03:44 AM	#2
Vincent Rozenberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 475	Shot with my XL-H1 to test that out: www.vincentrozenberg.com/files/tree.zip Captured with FCP (25F mode so 50i). Judge for yourself..

March 13th, 2006, 04:33 AM	#4
Vincent Rozenberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 475	@ Marc: I do understand Joel's concerns, since HDV has a low bitrate, difficult textures etcetera should be more of a problem for the codec. This is basically the same with DV if you compare that with digibeta for example. Bit in reality I'm very pleased with the results of the codec, even under difficult circumstances, like my example video.

March 13th, 2006, 08:43 AM	#7
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	joel: hdv handles these just fine. if anything, hdv is way better than dv at handling fine mist or fog scenarios, perhaps because of its increasd resolution and enhanced color space. playback can be stuttery, depending on the speed of your machine, but the output is fine. i can't speak for the JVC, but here's some footage from an FX-1 (1080i v. 720p for the JVC) that was directed towards testing these very issues (fog, moving water). a low-light concert environment may be quite different from a nature environment, but this will give you some idea. warning: biiig file, so be patient. also, the mist and moving water you're looking for is in the 2nd half of the file, so you might want to scroll through some of the desert scene stuff..... http://ia300119.us.archive.org/1/ite...ide642x360.mov

March 13th, 2006, 12:10 PM	#9
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Joel, I guess it's time we fire up my light show and fog machine ! Later this week, if you're up for it, bring over your HVX200 and we will do more testing. I have yet to see any macroblock compression issues. I'm looking forward to Steve's newsletter. By the way, Steve's HD100 handbook has a good section on MPEG.