New article on HD100

Daniel Weber · March 10th, 2006, 12:31 PM

Joel,

As a long time FCP user, yes Apple should have gotten a patch out for HDV 720P24. But I think that most of their programmers are working overtime to make the switch to a Universal version of FCP that will work on the new Intel Macs. Apple usually (at least for the past 3 years) releases a new version of FCP at NAB every year. You would think that they would want to announce a new version that will use the new Intel chips. Hopefully the new HDV 720p24 codec will be included.

Back to your original question though. I attended a seminar where Gary Adock, a top editor in Chicago, talked about editing HDV and that the best solution was to edit in another format than HDV. Shoot HDV and then convert upon ingestion into your NLE. He was touting the AJA card and using it to convert the footage into the DVCPro HD 720p codec. This would have to be done via the component outs on the HD100/deck, whatever your feeder is.

The main point was that HDV is great for shooting, but get out of it fast for editing and final delivery.

I have been editing HDV on a Mac for the past year, though it has been the Sony 1080i format. I am really longing for a progressive image though. Interlace artifacts on HDV are really bad.

What I am not sure of it how you could use the 24P images via the component output of the HD100. Does it output a 720p60 signal or a 24P one?

I need to do some more research.

Dan Weber

Tim Dashwood · March 10th, 2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

What I am not sure of it how you could use the 24P images via the component output of the HD100. Does it output a 720p60 signal or a 24P one?

Yes. That's a bit of a problem because you need to edit in a 60P sequence to avoid rendering. So you have the 2:3 pulldown duplicate frames all the time. I've captured some uncompressed 720P60 (while in 24P mode) using the BM Decklink and it worked well, both live and off tape. When capturing live you can never get 2:3 pulldown 24P, but instead 48P in a 1:1:1:2 pulldown pattern.(or maybe you could call it a 4:1 pulldown?) You can get a full 60P live out of the component when in 720P30 mode.

Paolo Ciccone · March 10th, 2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

But I think that most of their programmers are working overtime to make the switch to a Universal version of FCP that will work on the new Intel Macs.

Unlikely. The FCP Universal Binary was announced at the last MacWorld, scheduled for March. Switching to Universal Binary, for a developer, is a pretty simple transition, no much more than turning on a few switches in the compiler. And Apple had that technology available before anybody else. The biggest challenge is in QA and, in the case of FCP, integration with all the existing plugins.
No, Apple has really no excuse for taking so long to add 24P support to FCP. The 30P support is already there, they cannot claim that they don't have access to JVC specs. I'm a big fan of the company but what they did for the HD100 has really no explanation but the usual business games that are probably playing behind the scenes. It's no mystery that Apple and Panasonic are bedfellows, I think it's time for them to turn it into a threesome :)

--
Paolo

Daniel Weber · March 10th, 2006, 02:18 PM

Paulo,

Now let's not talk dirty on this forum!!!! LOL

I have a relative who works as a programmer/tester at Apple. I can give him a call and see if he can find anything out, though he says that the different teams do not talk to each other. Might be part of the culture there.

Apple should have fixed the problem. I asked them about it at DV Expo East last summer and they said that the HDV 720p24 spec wasn't part of the original HDV agreement made by the 5 original companies. This wasn't a high up that made the statement, but it did make sense from what I have read.

I hope they do implement it soon. I am making my mind up on a new camera soon and the HD100 is at the top of the list. And I won't be changing my editing system, so it has to work with FCP.

Dan Weber

Paolo Ciccone · March 10th, 2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

Paulo,
I have a relative who works as a programmer/tester at Apple. I can give him a call and see if he can find anything out, though he says that the different teams do not talk to each other. Might be part of the culture there.

Sometimes it's just the size of these projects. I worked for 7 year at Borland and each team was pretty separate too. Some technology was shared but everybody was busy working 14 hours a day trying to kick digital ass :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

I asked them about it at DV Expo East last summer and they said that the HDV 720p24 spec wasn't part of the original HDV agreement made by the 5 original companies.

If that's true, it's a pretty dumb agreement. What were they thinking? who was the visionary who thought that 24fps doesn't matter? :) Quick give him a VP position, he's too good!

Quote:

I hope they do implement it soon. I am making my mind up on a new camera soon and the HD100 is at the top of the list. And I won't be changing my editing system, so it has to work with FCP.

Dan, it does work with FCP provided that you use something like HDVxDV. I got the camera in October and since then I've been testing and importing clips into FCP. I use HDVxDV or the clips capturedfrom DVRack (PC), export the m2t to AIC and then edit it in FCP. So far so good and the cost of HDVxDV is about $80, if I remember well, so it's affordable. One more step but nothing too dramatic. My main concern is about possible quality loss (not noticed) and the fact that I lost the rather excellent clip logging feature of FCP. It's not bad in the interim but Apple's latency is gettingincresingly frustrating.
But wait, on the other hand they just announced the WONDERFUL iPod leather case. WOW! Now, that's was worth the wait ;)

--
Paolo

Mike Marriage · March 11th, 2006, 06:51 AM

There is certainly no excuse as to why they aren't supporting 25p. That must have always been a known spec. Why support 30p and not 25p???

Daniel Weber · March 11th, 2006, 07:10 AM

From what I was told, the original specs for HDV were 720p30 and 1080i.

JVC then developed ProHD with its 720p24 frame rate, which technically isn't part of the HDV spec. (This is what I was told so don't flame the messanger).

No matter what the case it, support for 24P needs to happen soon in FCP.

Apple and Panasonic have had a close relationship, but Apple also pushed the FX-1 when it came out (to help sell FCPE HD).

NAB should bring out some new stuff. Though I remember waiting for 2 years for DVCPRO HD over firewire to come out. Everyone thought that they needed FW800 for it and they didn't.

March 10th, 2006, 12:31 PM	#16
Daniel Weber Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 696	Joel, As a long time FCP user, yes Apple should have gotten a patch out for HDV 720P24. But I think that most of their programmers are working overtime to make the switch to a Universal version of FCP that will work on the new Intel Macs. Apple usually (at least for the past 3 years) releases a new version of FCP at NAB every year. You would think that they would want to announce a new version that will use the new Intel chips. Hopefully the new HDV 720p24 codec will be included. Back to your original question though. I attended a seminar where Gary Adock, a top editor in Chicago, talked about editing HDV and that the best solution was to edit in another format than HDV. Shoot HDV and then convert upon ingestion into your NLE. He was touting the AJA card and using it to convert the footage into the DVCPro HD 720p codec. This would have to be done via the component outs on the HD100/deck, whatever your feeder is. The main point was that HDV is great for shooting, but get out of it fast for editing and final delivery. I have been editing HDV on a Mac for the past year, though it has been the Sony 1080i format. I am really longing for a progressive image though. Interlace artifacts on HDV are really bad. What I am not sure of it how you could use the 24P images via the component output of the HD100. Does it output a 720p60 signal or a 24P one? I need to do some more research. Dan Weber

March 10th, 2006, 02:18 PM	#19
Daniel Weber Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 696	Paulo, Now let's not talk dirty on this forum!!!! LOL I have a relative who works as a programmer/tester at Apple. I can give him a call and see if he can find anything out, though he says that the different teams do not talk to each other. Might be part of the culture there. Apple should have fixed the problem. I asked them about it at DV Expo East last summer and they said that the HDV 720p24 spec wasn't part of the original HDV agreement made by the 5 original companies. This wasn't a high up that made the statement, but it did make sense from what I have read. I hope they do implement it soon. I am making my mind up on a new camera soon and the HD100 is at the top of the list. And I won't be changing my editing system, so it has to work with FCP. Dan Weber

March 11th, 2006, 06:51 AM	#21
Mike Marriage Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NE of London, England Posts: 788	There is certainly no excuse as to why they aren't supporting 25p. That must have always been a known spec. Why support 30p and not 25p???

March 11th, 2006, 07:10 AM	#22
Daniel Weber Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 696	From what I was told, the original specs for HDV were 720p30 and 1080i. JVC then developed ProHD with its 720p24 frame rate, which technically isn't part of the HDV spec. (This is what I was told so don't flame the messanger). No matter what the case it, support for 24P needs to happen soon in FCP. Apple and Panasonic have had a close relationship, but Apple also pushed the FX-1 when it came out (to help sell FCPE HD). NAB should bring out some new stuff. Though I remember waiting for 2 years for DVCPRO HD over firewire to come out. Everyone thought that they needed FW800 for it and they didn't.