HD questions at DVinfo.net

Logan Kost · February 19th, 2006, 11:42 AM

Hey everyone,

This is my first post. Well, anyways, I am starting to get into filming weddings (I have been shooting with a professional ). I also make short movies quite frequently and am looking to upgrade from my current GL2, (I usually shoot on a Sony HDR-FX1). I want to upgrade to the JVC HD100. When I shoot with the HDR I only shoot in DV because I am completely lost when it comes to HD.

So…I have a huge list of things regarding HD I am confused about, sorry if it is too long.

First off,
1- I know the HD100 can shoot in multiple formats so I am wondering what the difference is between all of these. IE- 720p, 60p, 1080i, SD60p, 30 fps, 60i. What is the difference between all of those? (Each of those are terms I have encountered when reading some of the threads, so if any are not real etc, I apologize).

2- What is 4:2:2 and 4:2:0, what is the difference between those?

3- I am confused on the whole slow-mo deal because I don’t’ really understand of these terms otherwise I wouldn’t ask this. Will HD footage be able to reduced in speed for slow motion?

4- Would it be smart to buy an external recorder for it? Or buy something like the BR-HD50U?

5- I am going to upgrade Adobe Premiere PRO 2.0, I know this can edit HD but what is the deal with programs like Aspect, Connect, and HDV x DV. Or things like AJA, actually video cards. Or can I just capture HDV footage to my computer via fire wire without any additional programs.

If anyone knows of any links that just explain HD overall and what these different formats do etc, It would be much appreciated.

Also, would it be smarter to buy the Vegas 6 package rather than getting PPRO 2 with encore? I was thinking it might because aspect costs around $500 and if I need that to edit HD with premiere pro 2.0 then I dont know what to do.

If you can, e-mail me at lgkost@gmail.com as well.

Thanks everyone, I hope I can get some of my questions answered.
-Logan

Paolo Ciccone · February 19th, 2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Kost

First off,
1- I know the HD100 can shoot in multiple formats so I am wondering what the difference is between all of these. IE- 720p, 60p, 1080i, SD60p, 30 fps, 60i. What is the difference between all of those? (Each of those are terms I have encountered when reading some of the threads, so if any are not real etc, I apologize).

HD can be recorded at two resoutions: 1080 lines or 720 lines of resolution. 1080 is interlaced while 720 is progressive. The HD100 records at 720 (1280x720). 720p means progessive scan. DV, in NTSC, is 720x480 interlaced. You could write it 480i. The HD100 also supports 480p, same resolution of SD but in progressive mode. This will produce a sharper image than your standard SD camcorder. The HD100 also supports diferent frame rates. NTSC SD camcorders usually work only at 60i, 30 fps in interlaced mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Kost

2- What is 4:2:2 and 4:2:0, what is the difference between those?

I suggest to buy a book or two about the subject. "Digital Moviemaking" by Scott Billups has an excellent description of different color spaces with pros and cons of each one. It's a pretty long subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Kost

3- I am confused on the whole slow-mo deal because I don’t’ really understand of these terms otherwise I wouldn’t ask this. Will HD footage be able to reduced in speed for slow motion?

You can slow footage down in your NLE basicaly duplicating several frames and blending them together. It works but it cannot capture fast moving objects at show them in real slowmo. The HD100 can shoot at 576p 50fps. If you load the resulting clip in a program like AfterEffects and interpret the footage at 24fps you obtain real slomo effect at 50% speed, assuming that you shoot at 24fps. There is a reduction of resolution but it's perfectly useable.

[QUOTE=Logan Kost]
4- Would it be smart to buy an external recorder for it? Or buy something like the BR-HD50U?
[/QUOTE=Logan Kost]

It depends on your use for the camera. Why you think you would need an external recorder. Lots of people use tapes just fine.

[QUOTE=Logan Kost]
If anyone knows of any links that just explain HD overall and what these different formats do etc, It would be much appreciated.
[/QUOTE=Logan Kost]

Again, I suggests Billups book. It's detailed without being verbose, fun to read and just packed with useful info.

Good luck.

--
Paolo

Logan Kost · February 19th, 2006, 12:29 PM

thanks a ton for the information. I am going to buy that book along with HDV- What you Need to Know.

Does anyone have any information on the whole Premiere Pro deal and if It would be smarter to switch to vegas?

-Logan

Tony Goodman · February 19th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Hi Logan

I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall here, I have reccommended this program before on this forum but no one seems interested but I would really reccommend taking a serious look at Edius Pro 3.61 from Canopus, with the NX for HD Expansion Board. .. I have an HD100 and use Edius with great results.

I can capture any format the camera has. The Canopus HQ codec works seemlessly and gives (IMHO) top class results. You can mix HDV or DV clips on the same timeline, again with no problems and ProCoder exports with no problems to tape or file, with or without TC added. Although it could be quicker.

I have tried Paulo's slowmo method with After Effects but again (IMHO) the 'speed' function in Edius gives exactly the same results. Great if you do not happen to have AE!

The effects are a bit limited but it does the 'nuts and bolts' tasks brilliantly. The program is very stable especially on long projects. I have used Premiere 1.5 before and for stability and overall performance I would always take Edius.

The interface takes abit of getting used to if you are used to drop down menus ( it uses context sensitive menus) but once you get used to it I think it is far better than drop down.

Also if you are new to DVD creation ULead DVD Workshop SE is bundled with the program (in the UK at least) Although it is a bit limited in features it is one of the easiest DVD programs I have seen. Anyone with little or no knowledge og DVD creation can have a full feature production going in a very short time. The included templates are pretty decent but you can import your own if you wish.

Logan Kost · February 19th, 2006, 02:08 PM

I like the looks of that program but I would really like to do my editing in Adobe Premiere if that is possible, thats why I think getting something like Aspect would be better for me.

-Logan

Tony Goodman · February 19th, 2006, 03:05 PM

Logan

Good luck with whatever you decide on

Tony

Robert M Wright · February 19th, 2006, 03:10 PM

Logan -

To make things simple, for now, you might want to think of the HD100U as simply a 720/30p (or 720/24p) camera. For weddings, that is almost assuredly what you would be shooting with the HD100U (it's unlikely you would be using SDI output).

With 4:2:2 color sampling, for every 4 pixels in an image, there are 4 luminance samplings and 2 chroma samplings. With 4:2:0 (and 4:1:1) color sampling, for every 4 pixels, there are 4 luminance samplings and 1 chroma sampling. In a nutshell, with 4:2:2 color sampling you have twice the chroma resolution as with 4:2:0 or 4:1:1 color sampling. (I wouldn't suggest getting concerned about the distinction between 4:2:0 and 4:1:1 just yet.)

Tim Holtermann · February 19th, 2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Kost

I like the looks of that program but I would really like to do my editing in Adobe Premiere if that is possible, thats why I think getting something like Aspect would be better for me.

-Logan

I use Cineform AspectHD (potentially ProspectHD too) with great results. So far Premiere 2.0 and AspectHD 4.0 are screaming along.

In fact it was Cineform Tech Support and I on the phone together that really traced the issue with the HD100 latest firmware and unusual behavior when hitting play on the camera or triggering it via Firewire. Turns out JVC was taking the camera offline and then back online during play initilization. While some NLE's will not have a problem with this that behavior is not correct and no other camera does this when connected via Firewire. JVC has issued a Firmware fix.

The point of this - Not only is Cineform a great codec to edit with and very high quality but the company as a whole is outstanding. The President of the Company is a regular contributer to these forums, their tech support knows me by my first name and worked with me on an issue that wasn't even their problem.

Can't ask for more than that.

Robert M Wright · February 19th, 2006, 04:42 PM

I wrote Cineform with some questions a few weeks ago, and the response was first class (quick, thoughtful and honest).

Kevin Shaw · February 19th, 2006, 10:44 PM

I personally wouldn't recommend the HD100U for weddings unless you're comfortable doing all your focusing manually in a 'run and gun' situation. You indicated you already have access to a Sony FX1: that's a better choice for wedding videography with some limitations in low-light situations.

Robert M Wright · February 19th, 2006, 11:06 PM

Isn't the FX1 (and Z1) a little better in low light than the HD100U?

Kevin Shaw · February 20th, 2006, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

Isn't the FX1 (and Z1) a little better in low light than the HD100U?

I shot some comparison footage between the two last week but haven't had time to assess it yet. My comment reflects the notion that none of the latest HD cameras are great in low light, so that's something to keep in mind with any of them.

Robert M Wright · February 20th, 2006, 12:36 AM

Kevin - I'd like to hear your comments, once you've had a chance to assess the footage. Could you possibly share some of that footage?

Logan Kost · February 20th, 2006, 02:38 PM

Thanks for the replys. I have one more question.
Do you think my AMD Athlon 64 dual core 3800+ 2.20 ghz processor with one gb of ram could handle using PPRO 2.0 and Aspect?

-Logan

Robert M Wright · February 20th, 2006, 03:34 PM

Logan - I can't speak from firsthand experience with PPro, but if the rest of your computer system is up to snuff (enough and fast enough RAM memory, sufficient HDDs, etc.) you'll probably be pretty pleased. The A64X2s are pretty potent processors. If you decide to bump up to a little faster A64X2, I'd suggest sticking with the Manchester cores, since from what I've been reading, it appears they should provide a little better bang-for-the-buck than the Toledos (for working with video in general).

February 19th, 2006, 11:42 AM	#1
Logan Kost Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: chandler, arizona Posts: 4	HD questions Hey everyone, This is my first post. Well, anyways, I am starting to get into filming weddings (I have been shooting with a professional ). I also make short movies quite frequently and am looking to upgrade from my current GL2, (I usually shoot on a Sony HDR-FX1). I want to upgrade to the JVC HD100. When I shoot with the HDR I only shoot in DV because I am completely lost when it comes to HD. So…I have a huge list of things regarding HD I am confused about, sorry if it is too long. First off, 1- I know the HD100 can shoot in multiple formats so I am wondering what the difference is between all of these. IE- 720p, 60p, 1080i, SD60p, 30 fps, 60i. What is the difference between all of those? (Each of those are terms I have encountered when reading some of the threads, so if any are not real etc, I apologize). 2- What is 4:2:2 and 4:2:0, what is the difference between those? 3- I am confused on the whole slow-mo deal because I don’t’ really understand of these terms otherwise I wouldn’t ask this. Will HD footage be able to reduced in speed for slow motion? 4- Would it be smart to buy an external recorder for it? Or buy something like the BR-HD50U? 5- I am going to upgrade Adobe Premiere PRO 2.0, I know this can edit HD but what is the deal with programs like Aspect, Connect, and HDV x DV. Or things like AJA, actually video cards. Or can I just capture HDV footage to my computer via fire wire without any additional programs. If anyone knows of any links that just explain HD overall and what these different formats do etc, It would be much appreciated. Also, would it be smarter to buy the Vegas 6 package rather than getting PPRO 2 with encore? I was thinking it might because aspect costs around $500 and if I need that to edit HD with premiere pro 2.0 then I dont know what to do. If you can, e-mail me at lgkost@gmail.com as well. Thanks everyone, I hope I can get some of my questions answered. -Logan

February 19th, 2006, 01:44 PM	#4
Tony Goodman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Liverpool, UK Posts: 70	NLE to buy for HD Hi Logan I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall here, I have reccommended this program before on this forum but no one seems interested but I would really reccommend taking a serious look at Edius Pro 3.61 from Canopus, with the NX for HD Expansion Board. .. I have an HD100 and use Edius with great results. I can capture any format the camera has. The Canopus HQ codec works seemlessly and gives (IMHO) top class results. You can mix HDV or DV clips on the same timeline, again with no problems and ProCoder exports with no problems to tape or file, with or without TC added. Although it could be quicker. I have tried Paulo's slowmo method with After Effects but again (IMHO) the 'speed' function in Edius gives exactly the same results. Great if you do not happen to have AE! The effects are a bit limited but it does the 'nuts and bolts' tasks brilliantly. The program is very stable especially on long projects. I have used Premiere 1.5 before and for stability and overall performance I would always take Edius. The interface takes abit of getting used to if you are used to drop down menus ( it uses context sensitive menus) but once you get used to it I think it is far better than drop down. Also if you are new to DVD creation ULead DVD Workshop SE is bundled with the program (in the UK at least) Although it is a bit limited in features it is one of the easiest DVD programs I have seen. Anyone with little or no knowledge og DVD creation can have a full feature production going in a very short time. The included templates are pretty decent but you can import your own if you wish.

February 19th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#3
Logan Kost Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: chandler, arizona Posts: 4	thanks a ton for the information. I am going to buy that book along with HDV- What you Need to Know. Does anyone have any information on the whole Premiere Pro deal and if It would be smarter to switch to vegas? -Logan

February 19th, 2006, 02:08 PM	#5
Logan Kost Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: chandler, arizona Posts: 4	I like the looks of that program but I would really like to do my editing in Adobe Premiere if that is possible, thats why I think getting something like Aspect would be better for me. -Logan

February 19th, 2006, 03:05 PM	#6
Tony Goodman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Liverpool, UK Posts: 70	Logan Good luck with whatever you decide on Tony

February 19th, 2006, 03:10 PM	#7
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Logan - To make things simple, for now, you might want to think of the HD100U as simply a 720/30p (or 720/24p) camera. For weddings, that is almost assuredly what you would be shooting with the HD100U (it's unlikely you would be using SDI output). With 4:2:2 color sampling, for every 4 pixels in an image, there are 4 luminance samplings and 2 chroma samplings. With 4:2:0 (and 4:1:1) color sampling, for every 4 pixels, there are 4 luminance samplings and 1 chroma sampling. In a nutshell, with 4:2:2 color sampling you have twice the chroma resolution as with 4:2:0 or 4:1:1 color sampling. (I wouldn't suggest getting concerned about the distinction between 4:2:0 and 4:1:1 just yet.)

February 19th, 2006, 04:42 PM	#9
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	I wrote Cineform with some questions a few weeks ago, and the response was first class (quick, thoughtful and honest).

February 19th, 2006, 10:44 PM	#10
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	I personally wouldn't recommend the HD100U for weddings unless you're comfortable doing all your focusing manually in a 'run and gun' situation. You indicated you already have access to a Sony FX1: that's a better choice for wedding videography with some limitations in low-light situations.

February 19th, 2006, 11:06 PM	#11
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Isn't the FX1 (and Z1) a little better in low light than the HD100U?

February 20th, 2006, 12:36 AM	#13
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Kevin - I'd like to hear your comments, once you've had a chance to assess the footage. Could you possibly share some of that footage?

February 20th, 2006, 02:38 PM	#14
Logan Kost Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: chandler, arizona Posts: 4	Thanks for the replys. I have one more question. Do you think my AMD Athlon 64 dual core 3800+ 2.20 ghz processor with one gb of ram could handle using PPRO 2.0 and Aspect? -Logan

February 20th, 2006, 03:34 PM	#15
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Logan - I can't speak from firsthand experience with PPro, but if the rest of your computer system is up to snuff (enough and fast enough RAM memory, sufficient HDDs, etc.) you'll probably be pretty pleased. The A64X2s are pretty potent processors. If you decide to bump up to a little faster A64X2, I'd suggest sticking with the Manchester cores, since from what I've been reading, it appears they should provide a little better bang-for-the-buck than the Toledos (for working with video in general).