Mode Changing...

Greg Corke · March 5th, 2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

Hi All,

It will require a firmware upgrade and a hardware modification kit.
It will be available soon. The Belgian service department expects to receive this kit any week now.

Marc

Hi Marc,

I'm taking my camera back tomorrow for them to have a look at this issue. Do you have any idea what exactly that hardware modification is? I would love to know as maybe I could prompt the technician in that direction. As it stands they said it would just be a firmware upgrade.

Thanks, Greg

Wade Stai · March 5th, 2006, 10:30 AM

THE MAIN PROBLEM:
---------------------------------------------------
To all appearances, the camera will record...the small amount of viewable footage looks beautiful in the VF, LCD, and my 42 inch 1080 Plasma... the problem comes with playback, the camera cannot decode what has been put to tape, the images if I am lucky will be captured for the first 1-3 minutes. Anything after that is completely useless and triggers the "Mode Changing" / Blue Screen. The time code remains accurate and keeps running even though there is no recorded footage.

TAPES USED:
---------------------------------------------------
PANASONIC Mini DV - I managed less than 1 minute. Anything after that would never even play back. I would see a frozen blurred image that looked so bad it reminded me of a bad still photo, shot in low light, from a old camera phone. The camera acted almost like the image was stuck in place. Other times I would get footage, terribly pixilated and visible coding constantly disrupting the footage.

PANASONIC DV MASTER - This didn't work much better than the regular DV tape. I managed maybe two minutes of footage.

TDK Mini DV - This tape worked well up until the 3 minute mark and then I would get trapped with the blue screen & "Mode Changing"

JVC Mini DV - No luck either. Same problems.

HEAD CLEANERS USED:
---------------------------------------------------
I tried a SONY head cleaner and a PANASONIC head cleaner...they made no difference.

SETTINGS:
---------------------------------------------------
HDV 24p - Output 1080i - Worked the most frequently...but failed.
HDV 24p - Output 720p - Never worked, would trigger the problem immediately.
HVD 25p - Output 720p (also: NATIVE) - Worked for around 2 minutes.
HDV 30p - Output 720p - Never worked, same problems.

All the same problems occurred with the SD footage as well, but not as frequently.

FINAL THOUGHTS (As I box my JVC for shipping):
---------------------------------------------------
This is NOT a tape brand/quality issue or an issue with clogged heads as some have already posted. This is a problem with the internal firmware and software system and how the camera interprets the MPEG compression and coding put out to tape, as well as the internal switching between resolution, format and frame rate.

Based on my experience this weekend and what I have read on this board, JVC is sending a large percentage of units into the market that really have no business on the streets yet. I'm sorry but at five grand, this is completely unacceptable. I would urge all of you to demand that JVC issue a recall of model GY-HD100U and overhaul the system. After extensive real world R&D, JVC should re launch the "new and improved" camera, and give you guys (and girls) the first new models! They owe you that for your loyalty.

I on the other hand will not be exchanging or purchasing another JVC.

I'm going to get a $5,200 credit from B&H on Monday, then I'm going to weep as I shell out another $3,800 above that and buy the Canon XL-H1. After surfing that message board and seeing all the happy users, it makes me glad to know that someone got it right the first time. I own an XL1 that has never failed since I bought it new in 1999... so going back to a new Canon HD with all the inherent quirks of the XL series won't be much of a challenge. I suspect I should have just done that in the first place. I'll be posting my clips, stills and feedback over on the XL-H1 user board in the coming weeks.

Before some of you inevitably cry: "He's a Canon guy!" I also shoot with the following cameras regularly:

* Panasonic: DVX100, DVC Pro, and P2:HVX200
* Sony: VX series, FX1, Z
* Canon: XL1, XL2, GL2

Seriously, all of you who have the JVC, if your camera works and you're happy, consider yourself lucky and enjoy it. All I see is what could have been a great camera, that turned into a great dissapointment. I wish you all the best and hope your cameras operate better (and longer) than mine did. I look forward to seeing the results of your effort. Happy shooting!

Nate Weaver · March 5th, 2006, 11:03 AM

My first reaction to this is that I would never put 3 different brands of tape in my machine and switch between them repeatedly. Just doing that once with two tapes, in my experience, has always been asking for trouble.

Marc Colemont · March 5th, 2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Corke

Hi Marc,

I'm taking my camera back tomorrow for them to have a look at this issue. Do you have any idea what exactly that hardware modification is? I would love to know as maybe I could prompt the technician in that direction. As it stands they said it would just be a firmware upgrade.

Thanks, Greg

Greg,
No they didn't tell me what the kit would be.

Wade,
The camera is a great tool. Only a few of us have this problem, and a fix is coming soon. If your camera does it constantly, then you need it to be replaced immediaty yes.

In the weekend at a job I seemed to triggered it by putting the camera on and wait until the tape mechanism went to stand-by. My first shot when I pressed REC was Mode changing... monster when I looked back. I constantly checked my footage with the RET button. So I turned off and on the camera, recorded a piece and it was fine again.

Wade Stai · March 5th, 2006, 11:16 AM

Nate: Normally I would agree, but at that point I was looking for ANY possible solution. The good, the bad, and the crazy...

Paolo Ciccone · March 5th, 2006, 11:33 AM

Hi.

I don't mean to rub this in the face of all the people having these problems. Just wanted to say that there are cameras out there that don't manifest this problem. I never had any SSE on my model and initially I even switched mode while using the same tape and record at 30p or 24p without thinking that that was an issue. I captured the footage using HDVxDV and it was OK.
Now, I would post my firmware settings if anybody who knows how to get the to the advanced menu emails me the button sequence.
I'm a software engineer so I know to not mess around with this stuff.
I'l post my configuration as soon as I get the instructions.

Good luck to everybody.

--
Paolo

Nate Weaver · March 5th, 2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade Stai

Nate: Normally I would agree, but at that point I was looking for ANY possible solution. The good, the bad, and the crazy...

Right. My hunch is that you had the expected "dirty head" shakeout with your new camera, and then made it worse by trying 3 different tape stocks afterwards. I've only gotten the mode changing problem twice: Once when I switched back and forth between two modes on tape within a minute or two (the camera can't switch fast enough and that causes problems), or...another circumstance in which I was losing blocks in the picture already which indicated a high tape error rate (which is usually a head clog problem). The latter happened on my second day with the camera.

Try one more thing for me before you send back...

1-Run the head cleaner for the prescribed time

2-Choose your favorite brand of tape. Play it back (even if it's blank) in the camera for 5-10 minutes

3-Run head cleaner again

3-Play some more on same tape as above.

4-Switch tape to another, but same brand/type. Try recording.

The idea here is to get the head clear of any other lubricant and/or particles. My hunch is that after trying this, you'll see the problem get better or clear up completely. If it merely gets better, repeat the cycle and see if it improves more. I'm thinking it will.

Of course, your heads could just be misaligned and be causing a high error rate also...in which case sending back is the only solution.

Council Bradshaw · March 5th, 2006, 12:06 PM

I've been away since last week shooting some commercials with a loaner HD-100. (looks awesome BTW) Tomorrow I'll be shipping my camera to JVC for the upgrade to fix the "mode changing" issue. They assured me it would be a three to four day turn around. Once I get the updated/repaired camera back I'll post firmware versions etc. On a positive note the footage from the commercial shoot turned out incredible. The client was blown away. I'll post some footage on a seperate thread. Bottom line is I'm very happy with this camera.... well once this "mode changing" issue is fixed.

Greg Corke · March 5th, 2006, 12:16 PM

I know this is turning into a kind of tape issue thing but to be honest I really think its something to do with the hardware software config. Just the fact that there is no set pattern seems to suggest its something that the camera is doing incorrectly. I agree tape stock change is an issue but I have a funny feeling this is not the cause of the 'mode changing'. Furthermoree myself and others have used only JVC prohd tapes and we still have these problems. I imagine it IS fixable though and it's just a case of JVC getting there heads round it and finding a solution.

Greg

Greg Corke · March 5th, 2006, 12:22 PM

Tomorrow I'll be shipping my camera to JVC for the upgrade to fix the "mode changing" issue. They assured me it would be a three to four day turn around. Once I get the updated/repaired camera back I'll post firmware versions etc.

Hi Council,

What exactly did JVC say they were going to do to your camera mate? I'd love to know as I could relay this to the british end.

Thanks Greg

P.S. Hate to sound like the pompous Brit but is 'Council' your christain name it's just I've never come across it before. Also. look forward to seeing some of your shoot footage. G

Jiri Bakala · March 5th, 2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Right. My hunch is that you had the expected "dirty head" shakeout with your new camera, and then made it worse by trying 3 different tape stocks afterwards.

Nate, I am sorry but I disagree with you on this. Changing tape is sometimes what happens in the real world. I agree in principle that it's not a good idea, particularly the switch between 'wet' and 'dry' lubricants but from what I am reading, Wade only used tapes with 'dry' lubrications and that should not have triggered such a disasterous response. It looks like his cam is a real lemon while the issue is real for quite a few of us and HAS to be addresse by JVC.

Council Bradshaw · March 5th, 2006, 11:34 PM

Hi Council,

What exactly did JVC say they were going to do to your camera mate? I'd love to know as I could relay this to the british end.
Greg,
I was told it is a software issue that developed when they were trying to address the SSE. When I learn more I'll share. I hope thats all it is and we can get this fixed and move on to making great pictures. The camera really is awesome.
I'm pretty positive that his is not a tape brand issue. I only used one brand of tape(JVC ProHD) and it happened within the first 10min. I cleaned the heads and it worked for maybe another twenty. When it happened the second time, it never came back. I lost a all the footage from my production the next day. Thats when I started to freak out.

P.S. Hate to sound like the pompous Brit but is 'Council' your christain name it's just I've never come across it before. Also. look forward to seeing some of your shoot footage. G

Council is a family name... yes its rare as a first name. Usually hear it as a last. However in my family its used several times as a first.

Wade Stai · March 6th, 2006, 01:53 AM

You guys are all very loyal, I'll give you that.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but my ranking here may say "New boot" but I've been shooting film and video here in sunny Arizona for nearly 15 years. Do you really think I didn't run the head cleaner?

In fact that was the first thing I did when the problem started, as a matter of fact I ran it Friday night and again mid afternoon on Saturday when the problem continued... Also all tapes I used were "dry" tape stock, so clogged heads really shouldn't even be an issue.

While I agree that changing tape brands frequently isn't a great idea, in the real world, especially News ENG it does tend to happen from time to time, but it has never been an issue with my XL1 or XL2 which have run every brand of tape flawlessly, for that matter so has my beat up little Panasonic...which is the most heavily abused camera I have ever touched.

I don't want this to degenerate into some lame "Ford vs. Chevy" or "PC vs. Mac" debate, but what I don't understand is the continuing and unwavering support for an obviously flawed piece of equipment. Based on the stuff posted here and elsewhere the JVC cameras that are working correctly seem to be the minority and not the other way around.

Doesn't it bother you guys that you are spending more time on the phone with a JVC rep trying to solve your latest problem with the unit instead of being out in the field shooting with it? Doesn't it bother you that you will have to send your camera to JVC for 3-4 days to get an upgrade to fix a problem that should have been addressed before the unit ever shipped? By the way since it's a "known issue" are they paying the shipping costs?

The simple truth where I come from is either it works or it doesn't...and if it doesn't you either fix it ASAP or replace it with something that will do the job right.

The problem began the first time I turned the camera on and never stopped...period. The camera that I was shipped was simply a bad apple. I don't get paid enough, nor do I have enough free time to be an unsuspecting beta tester for JVC, I'm certainly not going to PAY THEM $5,200.00 to troubleshoot their equipment everytime something goes wrong.

All I know is that my JVC is going back and my shiny new XL-H1 should be on my doorstep Friday. If past experience with my other XL series cameras is any indication, I should have some beautiful footage in no time...with substantially less grief than this JVC has caused.

As before I wish you all good luck with your cameras, and Happy shooting!

Nate Weaver · March 6th, 2006, 03:33 AM

Wade, we get all types in here. Most of the time we have to assume the worst when it comes to a posters experience level.

Sorry you had a bad experience with the cam. My post in particular came from my belief that the issue stems from two issues...one, firmware not being too quick on the draw for real mode changes on tape, and two, high error rates on tape. High error rates, as you probably already know, usually come from clogged heads of some sort.

My theory would go that once the error rate jumps too high, the firmware starts over trying to figure out what mode is on tape...when it should do something like assume the mode hasn't changed, and try to suss out the bitstream based on the last known stream type that it worked with.

Regardless, it's just a theory, and means nothing. Good luck with the Canon. It's a great camera...

Greg Corke · March 6th, 2006, 10:39 AM

okay,

well JVC said they would turn it around in a day and it's actually going to take a day and a half. What is more interesting however is that there is only a firmware update and some realiigning no hardware upgrade as Marc mentioned so we shall have to wait and see. I took in an example tape to show them and they assure me that this firmware upgrade will fix the problem. for some reason I'm a little sceptical I hope it is unjustified. I still think this cameras great even with the little bugs. I wish JVC could just iron out these little niggles then this camera in my opinion is the best all rounder currently on the market, fingers crossed.

Greg

March 5th, 2006, 10:30 AM	#47
Wade Stai Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 4	Great Disspointment... THE MAIN PROBLEM: --------------------------------------------------- To all appearances, the camera will record...the small amount of viewable footage looks beautiful in the VF, LCD, and my 42 inch 1080 Plasma... the problem comes with playback, the camera cannot decode what has been put to tape, the images if I am lucky will be captured for the first 1-3 minutes. Anything after that is completely useless and triggers the "Mode Changing" / Blue Screen. The time code remains accurate and keeps running even though there is no recorded footage. TAPES USED: --------------------------------------------------- PANASONIC Mini DV - I managed less than 1 minute. Anything after that would never even play back. I would see a frozen blurred image that looked so bad it reminded me of a bad still photo, shot in low light, from a old camera phone. The camera acted almost like the image was stuck in place. Other times I would get footage, terribly pixilated and visible coding constantly disrupting the footage. PANASONIC DV MASTER - This didn't work much better than the regular DV tape. I managed maybe two minutes of footage. TDK Mini DV - This tape worked well up until the 3 minute mark and then I would get trapped with the blue screen & "Mode Changing" JVC Mini DV - No luck either. Same problems. HEAD CLEANERS USED: --------------------------------------------------- I tried a SONY head cleaner and a PANASONIC head cleaner...they made no difference. SETTINGS: --------------------------------------------------- HDV 24p - Output 1080i - Worked the most frequently...but failed. HDV 24p - Output 720p - Never worked, would trigger the problem immediately. HVD 25p - Output 720p (also: NATIVE) - Worked for around 2 minutes. HDV 30p - Output 720p - Never worked, same problems. All the same problems occurred with the SD footage as well, but not as frequently. FINAL THOUGHTS (As I box my JVC for shipping): --------------------------------------------------- This is NOT a tape brand/quality issue or an issue with clogged heads as some have already posted. This is a problem with the internal firmware and software system and how the camera interprets the MPEG compression and coding put out to tape, as well as the internal switching between resolution, format and frame rate. Based on my experience this weekend and what I have read on this board, JVC is sending a large percentage of units into the market that really have no business on the streets yet. I'm sorry but at five grand, this is completely unacceptable. I would urge all of you to demand that JVC issue a recall of model GY-HD100U and overhaul the system. After extensive real world R&D, JVC should re launch the "new and improved" camera, and give you guys (and girls) the first new models! They owe you that for your loyalty. I on the other hand will not be exchanging or purchasing another JVC. I'm going to get a $5,200 credit from B&H on Monday, then I'm going to weep as I shell out another $3,800 above that and buy the Canon XL-H1. After surfing that message board and seeing all the happy users, it makes me glad to know that someone got it right the first time. I own an XL1 that has never failed since I bought it new in 1999... so going back to a new Canon HD with all the inherent quirks of the XL series won't be much of a challenge. I suspect I should have just done that in the first place. I'll be posting my clips, stills and feedback over on the XL-H1 user board in the coming weeks. Before some of you inevitably cry: "He's a Canon guy!" I also shoot with the following cameras regularly: * Panasonic: DVX100, DVC Pro, and P2:HVX200 * Sony: VX series, FX1, Z * Canon: XL1, XL2, GL2 Seriously, all of you who have the JVC, if your camera works and you're happy, consider yourself lucky and enjoy it. All I see is what could have been a great camera, that turned into a great dissapointment. I wish you all the best and hope your cameras operate better (and longer) than mine did. I look forward to seeing the results of your effort. Happy shooting!

March 5th, 2006, 11:03 AM	#48
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	My first reaction to this is that I would never put 3 different brands of tape in my machine and switch between them repeatedly. Just doing that once with two tapes, in my experience, has always been asking for trouble. __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

March 5th, 2006, 11:16 AM	#50
Wade Stai Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 4	Tapes Nate: Normally I would agree, but at that point I was looking for ANY possible solution. The good, the bad, and the crazy...

March 5th, 2006, 11:33 AM	#51
Paolo Ciccone Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 1,116	No SSE, no mode change Hi. I don't mean to rub this in the face of all the people having these problems. Just wanted to say that there are cameras out there that don't manifest this problem. I never had any SSE on my model and initially I even switched mode while using the same tape and record at 30p or 24p without thinking that that was an issue. I captured the footage using HDVxDV and it was OK. Now, I would post my firmware settings if anybody who knows how to get the to the advanced menu emails me the button sequence. I'm a software engineer so I know to not mess around with this stuff. I'l post my configuration as soon as I get the instructions. Good luck to everybody. -- Paolo

March 5th, 2006, 12:16 PM	#54
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	??? I know this is turning into a kind of tape issue thing but to be honest I really think its something to do with the hardware software config. Just the fact that there is no set pattern seems to suggest its something that the camera is doing incorrectly. I agree tape stock change is an issue but I have a funny feeling this is not the cause of the 'mode changing'. Furthermoree myself and others have used only JVC prohd tapes and we still have these problems. I imagine it IS fixable though and it's just a case of JVC getting there heads round it and finding a solution. Greg

March 5th, 2006, 12:06 PM	#53
Council Bradshaw Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 44	I've been away since last week shooting some commercials with a loaner HD-100. (looks awesome BTW) Tomorrow I'll be shipping my camera to JVC for the upgrade to fix the "mode changing" issue. They assured me it would be a three to four day turn around. Once I get the updated/repaired camera back I'll post firmware versions etc. On a positive note the footage from the commercial shoot turned out incredible. The client was blown away. I'll post some footage on a seperate thread. Bottom line is I'm very happy with this camera.... well once this "mode changing" issue is fixed.

March 5th, 2006, 12:22 PM	#55
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	interesting Tomorrow I'll be shipping my camera to JVC for the upgrade to fix the "mode changing" issue. They assured me it would be a three to four day turn around. Once I get the updated/repaired camera back I'll post firmware versions etc. Hi Council, What exactly did JVC say they were going to do to your camera mate? I'd love to know as I could relay this to the british end. Thanks Greg P.S. Hate to sound like the pompous Brit but is 'Council' your christain name it's just I've never come across it before. Also. look forward to seeing some of your shoot footage. G

March 5th, 2006, 11:34 PM	#57
Council Bradshaw Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 44	Hi Council, What exactly did JVC say they were going to do to your camera mate? I'd love to know as I could relay this to the british end. Greg, I was told it is a software issue that developed when they were trying to address the SSE. When I learn more I'll share. I hope thats all it is and we can get this fixed and move on to making great pictures. The camera really is awesome. I'm pretty positive that his is not a tape brand issue. I only used one brand of tape(JVC ProHD) and it happened within the first 10min. I cleaned the heads and it worked for maybe another twenty. When it happened the second time, it never came back. I lost a all the footage from my production the next day. Thats when I started to freak out. P.S. Hate to sound like the pompous Brit but is 'Council' your christain name it's just I've never come across it before. Also. look forward to seeing some of your shoot footage. G Council is a family name... yes its rare as a first name. Usually hear it as a last. However in my family its used several times as a first.

March 6th, 2006, 01:53 AM	#58
Wade Stai Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 4	Amazing Loyalty You guys are all very loyal, I'll give you that. Please don't take this the wrong way, but my ranking here may say "New boot" but I've been shooting film and video here in sunny Arizona for nearly 15 years. Do you really think I didn't run the head cleaner? In fact that was the first thing I did when the problem started, as a matter of fact I ran it Friday night and again mid afternoon on Saturday when the problem continued... Also all tapes I used were "dry" tape stock, so clogged heads really shouldn't even be an issue. While I agree that changing tape brands frequently isn't a great idea, in the real world, especially News ENG it does tend to happen from time to time, but it has never been an issue with my XL1 or XL2 which have run every brand of tape flawlessly, for that matter so has my beat up little Panasonic...which is the most heavily abused camera I have ever touched. I don't want this to degenerate into some lame "Ford vs. Chevy" or "PC vs. Mac" debate, but what I don't understand is the continuing and unwavering support for an obviously flawed piece of equipment. Based on the stuff posted here and elsewhere the JVC cameras that are working correctly seem to be the minority and not the other way around. Doesn't it bother you guys that you are spending more time on the phone with a JVC rep trying to solve your latest problem with the unit instead of being out in the field shooting with it? Doesn't it bother you that you will have to send your camera to JVC for 3-4 days to get an upgrade to fix a problem that should have been addressed before the unit ever shipped? By the way since it's a "known issue" are they paying the shipping costs? The simple truth where I come from is either it works or it doesn't...and if it doesn't you either fix it ASAP or replace it with something that will do the job right. The problem began the first time I turned the camera on and never stopped...period. The camera that I was shipped was simply a bad apple. I don't get paid enough, nor do I have enough free time to be an unsuspecting beta tester for JVC, I'm certainly not going to PAY THEM $5,200.00 to troubleshoot their equipment everytime something goes wrong. All I know is that my JVC is going back and my shiny new XL-H1 should be on my doorstep Friday. If past experience with my other XL series cameras is any indication, I should have some beautiful footage in no time...with substantially less grief than this JVC has caused. As before I wish you all good luck with your cameras, and Happy shooting!

March 6th, 2006, 03:33 AM	#59
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	Wade, we get all types in here. Most of the time we have to assume the worst when it comes to a posters experience level. Sorry you had a bad experience with the cam. My post in particular came from my belief that the issue stems from two issues...one, firmware not being too quick on the draw for real mode changes on tape, and two, high error rates on tape. High error rates, as you probably already know, usually come from clogged heads of some sort. My theory would go that once the error rate jumps too high, the firmware starts over trying to figure out what mode is on tape...when it should do something like assume the mode hasn't changed, and try to suss out the bitstream based on the last known stream type that it worked with. Regardless, it's just a theory, and means nothing. Good luck with the Canon. It's a great camera... __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

March 6th, 2006, 10:39 AM	#60
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	so far okay, well JVC said they would turn it around in a day and it's actually going to take a day and a half. What is more interesting however is that there is only a firmware update and some realiigning no hardware upgrade as Marc mentioned so we shall have to wait and see. I took in an example tape to show them and they assure me that this firmware upgrade will fix the problem. for some reason I'm a little sceptical I hope it is unjustified. I still think this cameras great even with the little bugs. I wish JVC could just iron out these little niggles then this camera in my opinion is the best all rounder currently on the market, fingers crossed. Greg