JVC GY

Michael C Lindner · February 6th, 2006, 03:15 PM

Hello all-

Yesterday tried in vain to capture JVC GY HD 100 footage shot in 720 / 24p into Final Cut Pro 5. The clips seemed to capture fine but then when played back were almost two times too fast, with the audio normal.

After a lot of looking into this I understand that FCP just doesn't support the 720/24p combo from this camera - or any other? Anyway, I am going to invest in Lumiere in order to convert and get the footage in and out, although the Lumiere site currently says that it does NOT support HDV BACK OUT to tape at 24p with this camera. I will most likely rent one of the camera's it does support and see if it works. Anyone have any thoughts re Lumiere?

Also, can we convert these mini-DV tapes we have - again, JVC HD 720 24p footage to another format - like mini DV at 30 or 60 frames, in order to facilitate theie capture into FCP?

Thanks,

M Lindner

Nate Weaver · February 6th, 2006, 04:20 PM

Michael, you're kind of in a pickle now because you've shot 24P, but FCP doesn't really support it yet.

You should do a search because this subject has been covered quite a few times in here, but I'll outline your options here:

1-What you've captured already is workable, but only if you don't need audio. You can take your existing clips and conform them to 23.98 using Cinema Tools. Audio will be at 40% speed, and only be at the first part of the each clip. In other words, unusable audio.

2-Recapture using a HD interface card like Kona LH at 720p60 to DVCPRO HD codec. You'll have to work at 60fps in the timeline, but it does work just fine.

3-Lumiere. Lumiere does it's own capturing, and then converts raw capture files to a more workable codec, like DVCPRO HD. Word on the street though is that it's buggy, and you have to pay $180 to find out for yourself.

4-HDVxDV. Does pretty much the same as Lumiere above, except for $80. Has a demo to try. I've tried the demo and have minor issues with how it goes about it's task, but most have said it's worked fine for them.

A good thing to keep in mind throughout this, is that you are truly on the bleeding edge of HD technology, and as you're going to find, there a lot of bugs and shortcomings the manufacturers are working out. Don't expect anything to work as advertised, and do your research homework. The reward will be staying a step ahead of your competition.

Michael C Lindner · February 6th, 2006, 05:11 PM

Nate-

Thanks for the wise words. Yeah, it seems like I'll go ahead and try the Lumiere, renting a Sony camera for the day for output to HD (the JVC is compatible via a new beta version says Lumiere but NOT for writing back HD at 24p).

Thanks, again.

M Cayce Lindner

Maurice Jolly · February 6th, 2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael C Lindner

Hello all-

Yesterday tried in vain to capture JVC GY HD 100 footage shot in 720 / 24p into Final Cut Pro 5. The clips seemed to capture fine but then when played back were almost two times too fast, with the audio normal.

After a lot of looking into this I understand that FCP just doesn't support the 720/24p combo from this camera - or any other? Anyway, I am going to invest in Lumiere in order to convert and get the footage in and out, although the Lumiere site currently says that it does NOT support HDV BACK OUT to tape at 24p with this camera. I will most likely rent one of the camera's it does support and see if it works. Anyone have any thoughts re Lumiere?

Also, can we convert these mini-DV tapes we have - again, JVC HD 720 24p footage to another format - like mini DV at 30 or 60 frames, in order to facilitate theie capture into FCP?

Thanks,

M Lindner

michael,
if you're not going out to film, then shoot 720 30p. fcp5 supports this natively until apple releases support for hdv 720 24p. good luck.

Nate Weaver · February 6th, 2006, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael C Linder

Thanks for the wise words. Yeah, it seems like I'll go ahead and try the Lumiere, renting a Sony camera for the day for output to HD

Well, there's more than that. You're going to have a tough time putting either 24p or 60p 720 clips to a Sony camera. The formats and framerates are on two different planets. Sony is 1080i60...

Alright, I'm curious. Let me see if this can work.
[goes away to test in FCP]

Alright, here's what you do (I just tested this):

1-Use Lumiere to get a 720p24 clips and cut.

2-Make a new sequence in FCP that's 1080i60

3-Select all your clips in your 720p timeline. Everything. Copy.

4-Paste everything into your 1080i60 timeline.

5-All your clips will now be too small to fill a 1080 frame. Take your first clip in the sequence and resize to 150%. Command-C that clip.

6-Select all the clips in timeline. Option-v to paste attributes. Select "Basic Motion" as attribute to paste.

7-Render everything, print to tape inside FCP. In fact, Lumiere is useless for print to tape at this point, so skip it.

I just tried a 720p24 clip in a 1080i60 timeline and it did in fact render out correctly with correct cadence. Don't know if 720p60 would do the same, though.

I hope you're not under a client deadline with this project...you're going to have some interesting times ahead! Welcome to HDV!

Tim Dashwood · February 6th, 2006, 07:28 PM

Michael,

A word of warning before you buy Lumiere HD. You should read our Lumiere and FCP forum.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=104
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=77
As well, you should read the tech support forums on Lumiere's website.

I attempt to be open-minded about all of the various software solutions, but if anyone were to ask my opinion today I couldn't bring myself to endorse Lumiere HD 1.6b2. I was excited by the press release at NAB for Lumiere HD 2.0 and Frederic's assurance in October to expect "frequent updates," but after my own extensive testing, I feel v1.6b2 isn't ready for primetime yet, and I'm disappointed that v2.0 hasn't been released yet.
Also remember that Lumiere are not releasing free downloadable demo or trial versions, it is still in beta, and "all sales are final."

I have spent countless hours with Lumiere HD 1.6b2 both in Panther and Tiger and have not been able to make it work as advertised. I find that the transport controls "grey out" after capturing the first clip. The only way to bring them back is to quit and relaunch. I actually went through the process of capturing everything via LumiereHD using the transport buttons on the camera to control the tape, but in the future would just use DVHSCap to capture the m2t files and then create 24P files with Lumiere or HDVxDV.

Lumiere's "demux then convert" method has its place in an online/offline environment, but I think most of us prefer to just create relatively small and efficient AIC 720P24 files and never look back.
Also, the demux process crashes if you accidentally capture a start/stop break . (I found a manual workaround by trimming the m2t file with MPEGstreamclip before demuxing.)

After demux you need to convert your m2v files to a codec of your choice. You can use the DV codec and work in SD, but frankly AIC 720P24 files are only marginally larger, so I use them.
BTW, this is the part of the process where Lumiere HD removes the repeated frames from the 60P m2t to create a 24P m2v.

The "Timeline codec" process (where the newly converted files are linked with the audio demuxed files and then a xml file is created) doesn't work properly with FCP5 and 24P. The current suggested workflow by Lumiere involves opening each video and audio clip in Quicktime Pro, then copying the audio to the video file and resaving. I found that an easier solution is to simply load all of your video and audio clips into FCP5 and then "Merge Clips" for each pair. It works, it holds sync, and I'm surprised Frederic hasn't posted the method on the support site.

The "Transport Stream" function is something that only LumiereHD seems to have, but as Nate mentioned it doesn't work with 720P24 files - only 1080i and 720P30. Incidentally, FCP5 will also output both of those formats for HDV.

On the flip side: Brad Wright's HDVxDV, although not perfect, is a much simpler solution. The pros are that the worklow involves capturing and exporting... that's it! Your audio stays synced with the video and you can convert to AIC 720P24 which has worked well for myself and others. It is also less than half the price.
The cons are that the TC capture doesn't work properly with 24P, but at least they are working on it (Lumiere HD does not record source TC.)
Also, the files v.1.24 create are 24fps instead of 23.98. This doesn't actually seem to cause problems editing into a 23.98 sequence, but you can easily batch conform the files to 23.98 with Cinema Tools.

If I could go back in time I would probably not buy Lumiere HD. Maybe v2.0 will fix the problems and be released before FCP6, but until then I would try out HDVxDV and if it works well for you, buy it.

Brian Duke · February 6th, 2006, 07:51 PM

Hi Tim,

I am still not sure why anyone would need to convert to 23.98, when 24p works? I am editing 24p and have yet to covnert to 23.98. Not sur eif I am doing it right, but it seems to work. Though I have not done any tape or film out yet.

Nate Weaver · February 6th, 2006, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Duke

Hi Tim,

I am still not sure why anyone would need to convert to 23.98, when 24p works? I am editing 24p and have yet to covnert to 23.98. Not sur eif I am doing it right, but it seems to work. Though I have not done any tape or film out yet.

For the purposes of our discussion, 24 and 23.98 are the same.

Michael C Lindner · February 6th, 2006, 11:41 PM

Just wanted to say thanks before my eyes slam shut and drool hits the keyboard. You have all given great advice. Thanks so much! You'll probably be hearing from me in a deranged state Wednesday when I actually sit down to try to do this again.

M Lindner

Steve Mullen · February 6th, 2006, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

If I could go back in time I would probably not buy Lumiere HD. Maybe v2.0 will fix the problems and be released before FCP6, but until then I would try out HDVxDV and if it works well for you, buy it.

I adsolutely agree. HDVxDV -- which could have a much better name -- works fine and is cheap. And, for output of 24p back to tape -- you can use Apple's free DVHScap.

Tim Dashwood · February 7th, 2006, 01:42 PM

So Lumiere HD just release a new beta - v.1.6b5

I just downloaded it and will put it through its paces before I report back. Maybe I'll change my tune if they've fixed some bugs.

http://www.lumierehd.com/current_beta/LumHD16b5.zip

Jim Giberti · February 7th, 2006, 03:40 PM

Personally until I need to start rolling tape that's going film out, I'll just shoot 30p and hope that Apple comes through in the meantime.

February 6th, 2006, 03:15 PM	#1
Michael C Lindner Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3	JVC GY - HD100 problems in FCP Hello all- Yesterday tried in vain to capture JVC GY HD 100 footage shot in 720 / 24p into Final Cut Pro 5. The clips seemed to capture fine but then when played back were almost two times too fast, with the audio normal. After a lot of looking into this I understand that FCP just doesn't support the 720/24p combo from this camera - or any other? Anyway, I am going to invest in Lumiere in order to convert and get the footage in and out, although the Lumiere site currently says that it does NOT support HDV BACK OUT to tape at 24p with this camera. I will most likely rent one of the camera's it does support and see if it works. Anyone have any thoughts re Lumiere? Also, can we convert these mini-DV tapes we have - again, JVC HD 720 24p footage to another format - like mini DV at 30 or 60 frames, in order to facilitate theie capture into FCP? Thanks, M Lindner

February 6th, 2006, 04:20 PM	#2
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	Michael, you're kind of in a pickle now because you've shot 24P, but FCP doesn't really support it yet. You should do a search because this subject has been covered quite a few times in here, but I'll outline your options here: 1-What you've captured already is workable, but only if you don't need audio. You can take your existing clips and conform them to 23.98 using Cinema Tools. Audio will be at 40% speed, and only be at the first part of the each clip. In other words, unusable audio. 2-Recapture using a HD interface card like Kona LH at 720p60 to DVCPRO HD codec. You'll have to work at 60fps in the timeline, but it does work just fine. 3-Lumiere. Lumiere does it's own capturing, and then converts raw capture files to a more workable codec, like DVCPRO HD. Word on the street though is that it's buggy, and you have to pay $180 to find out for yourself. 4-HDVxDV. Does pretty much the same as Lumiere above, except for $80. Has a demo to try. I've tried the demo and have minor issues with how it goes about it's task, but most have said it's worked fine for them. A good thing to keep in mind throughout this, is that you are truly on the bleeding edge of HD technology, and as you're going to find, there a lot of bugs and shortcomings the manufacturers are working out. Don't expect anything to work as advertised, and do your research homework. The reward will be staying a step ahead of your competition. __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

February 6th, 2006, 05:11 PM	#3
Michael C Lindner Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3	JVC GY HD100 problems in FCP - THANKS, Nate Nate- Thanks for the wise words. Yeah, it seems like I'll go ahead and try the Lumiere, renting a Sony camera for the day for output to HD (the JVC is compatible via a new beta version says Lumiere but NOT for writing back HD at 24p). Thanks, again. M Cayce Lindner

February 6th, 2006, 07:28 PM	#6
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Michael, A word of warning before you buy Lumiere HD. You should read our Lumiere and FCP forum. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=104 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=77 As well, you should read the tech support forums on Lumiere's website. I attempt to be open-minded about all of the various software solutions, but if anyone were to ask my opinion today I couldn't bring myself to endorse Lumiere HD 1.6b2. I was excited by the press release at NAB for Lumiere HD 2.0 and Frederic's assurance in October to expect "frequent updates," but after my own extensive testing, I feel v1.6b2 isn't ready for primetime yet, and I'm disappointed that v2.0 hasn't been released yet. Also remember that Lumiere are not releasing free downloadable demo or trial versions, it is still in beta, and "all sales are final." I have spent countless hours with Lumiere HD 1.6b2 both in Panther and Tiger and have not been able to make it work as advertised. I find that the transport controls "grey out" after capturing the first clip. The only way to bring them back is to quit and relaunch. I actually went through the process of capturing everything via LumiereHD using the transport buttons on the camera to control the tape, but in the future would just use DVHSCap to capture the m2t files and then create 24P files with Lumiere or HDVxDV. Lumiere's "demux then convert" method has its place in an online/offline environment, but I think most of us prefer to just create relatively small and efficient AIC 720P24 files and never look back. Also, the demux process crashes if you accidentally capture a start/stop break . (I found a manual workaround by trimming the m2t file with MPEGstreamclip before demuxing.) After demux you need to convert your m2v files to a codec of your choice. You can use the DV codec and work in SD, but frankly AIC 720P24 files are only marginally larger, so I use them. BTW, this is the part of the process where Lumiere HD removes the repeated frames from the 60P m2t to create a 24P m2v. The "Timeline codec" process (where the newly converted files are linked with the audio demuxed files and then a xml file is created) doesn't work properly with FCP5 and 24P. The current suggested workflow by Lumiere involves opening each video and audio clip in Quicktime Pro, then copying the audio to the video file and resaving. I found that an easier solution is to simply load all of your video and audio clips into FCP5 and then "Merge Clips" for each pair. It works, it holds sync, and I'm surprised Frederic hasn't posted the method on the support site. The "Transport Stream" function is something that only LumiereHD seems to have, but as Nate mentioned it doesn't work with 720P24 files - only 1080i and 720P30. Incidentally, FCP5 will also output both of those formats for HDV. On the flip side: Brad Wright's HDVxDV, although not perfect, is a much simpler solution. The pros are that the worklow involves capturing and exporting... that's it! Your audio stays synced with the video and you can convert to AIC 720P24 which has worked well for myself and others. It is also less than half the price. The cons are that the TC capture doesn't work properly with 24P, but at least they are working on it (Lumiere HD does not record source TC.) Also, the files v.1.24 create are 24fps instead of 23.98. This doesn't actually seem to cause problems editing into a 23.98 sequence, but you can easily batch conform the files to 23.98 with Cinema Tools. If I could go back in time I would probably not buy Lumiere HD. Maybe v2.0 will fix the problems and be released before FCP6, but until then I would try out HDVxDV and if it works well for you, buy it. __________________ Tim Dashwood

February 6th, 2006, 07:51 PM	#7
Brian Duke Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hollywood, California Posts: 899	Hi Tim, I am still not sure why anyone would need to convert to 23.98, when 24p works? I am editing 24p and have yet to covnert to 23.98. Not sur eif I am doing it right, but it seems to work. Though I have not done any tape or film out yet. __________________ Visit me and my work at www.artofduke.com

February 6th, 2006, 11:41 PM	#9
Michael C Lindner Tourist Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3	You guys are awesome. Thanks. Just wanted to say thanks before my eyes slam shut and drool hits the keyboard. You have all given great advice. Thanks so much! You'll probably be hearing from me in a deranged state Wednesday when I actually sit down to try to do this again. M Lindner

February 7th, 2006, 01:42 PM	#11
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	So Lumiere HD just release a new beta - v.1.6b5 I just downloaded it and will put it through its paces before I report back. Maybe I'll change my tune if they've fixed some bugs. http://www.lumierehd.com/current_beta/LumHD16b5.zip __________________ Tim Dashwood

February 7th, 2006, 03:40 PM	#12
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Personally until I need to start rolling tape that's going film out, I'll just shoot 30p and hope that Apple comes through in the meantime.