JVC HD100-Is this camera suitable for 'live' events in HDV mode?

Tony Goodman · February 7th, 2006, 01:29 PM

[QUOTE=Peter Ferling]I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here.

Pete

I composed this post earlier today but my computer crashed and I could not bring myself to write it out again straight away, but I know what you mean.

Anyway to give yo my honest if not expert opinion about the Hd100. I do not think the low light problem is nearly as bad as people make out. I have done my own amateur tests in my studio, just pointing the camera at my desk and monitors in what I would consider to be the very poor light, I would certainly have put my light on well before it got to this stage.

I observed the following, comparison between the DV and HDV modes of the HD100. The low light perfoprmance of the PD150 is better than the DV pic of the HD100. But I still prefer the overall HD picture to both of them.

The light source was almost no daylight and reflected light from an 11w fluorescent desklamp pointed directly at the wall about four feet away from the shot. It was pretty dark!

Iris was OPEN and shutter OFF.

Shot HDV-HD24p and DV-50i at no gain, 6db and 12db. I would never use more than 12 db at an event. In fact if I think ANY gain is neccessary I light up.

The DV signal was brighter but only marginally so to my eyes, and the better resolution and colour representation of the HD signal more than compensated. I much preferred the HD footage.

I really do not see low light as a problem with this camera, I am more worried about the disciplines of progressive, but that is more about my inexperience than any deficiency of the camera. I am gradually starting to get decent footage from it and following Marc's comments I feel I might be brave enough to do a wedding in HDV soon.

As for your corporate work if you get to know the camera before using it live, I think you will be really pleased with it, especially if the speaker is projected onto a large screen, that is when HDV REALLY does shine! When I bought my camera the dealer projected an image onto an 10ft screen and it was mind boggling how clean it was!

Can we finally NAIL one point for good. The SSE problem is no longer a problem! Mine had it and JVC fixed it. And I believe the new models do not have it in the first place.

Hope this helpful

Cheers

Tony

Albert Henson · February 7th, 2006, 01:32 PM

Steer clear of using the hd100 for wedding or live event videography.
The cam has bit me in the arse with some of my corporate work.
The camera's low light performance still leaves something to be desired, not to mention the SSE problem that may occur when shooting in a run and gun scenario where you won't be able to light each scene adequately. If you are a dedicated cinematographer shooting under controlled circumstances, then the cam will work great for you. Pro HD or HDV as a format is great and even a wedding vids will benefit from it's undeniable clarity. I don't care what anyone says, each and every unit out there still has the SSE problem. Adjust the knee-strech the blacks whatever. The SSE is still an intermittent issue no matter what you do-you must be able to control your lighting environment in a regimental manner in order to reap the full benefits of what this camera can deliver. Great if your a film maker-not so great for eng or event videography.

Nate Weaver · February 7th, 2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Henson

The camera's low light performance still leaves something to be desired,

In the 4 camera test I was involved with, all of the cameras behaved similarly in low-light. All had slightly different noise response in the blacks, but it was clear not one camera had a huge advantage over another.

Or, put another way, all the 1/3rd inch HD cameras leave a lot to be desired in low light (which is the way I'd put it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Henson

I don't care what anyone says, each and every unit out there still has the SSE problem.

The unkind way to take that would be "Well, I find it hard to believe you've tested every camera in service"

The kind way would be to interpret as "I don't care what anybody says, each and every unit is built the same way and potentially susceptible to the problem".

Albert, we're interested in your experience in the camera and if you've had problems. What we can't have is people shouting down users like me who have the camera, have experienced the issue, and say "eh. Not a show stopper".

Jiri Bakala · February 7th, 2006, 02:12 PM

It's true that one can INVOKE the SSE problem probably in every camera, however, I found that one really has to work on it to get it. At least with the more recent cameras.

In other words, it's not any longer a problem in a day-to-day shooting.

Diogo Athouguia · February 7th, 2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Albert, we're interested in your experience in the camera and if you've had problems. What we can't have is people shouting down users like me who have the camera, have experienced the issue, and say "eh. Not a show stopper".

Exactly, I'm sick of people saying this isn't a capable camera because of the SSE. That's not true, I own one, I've been using it under all kinds of situations and NEVER had problems with SSE. I'm a professional like most users on this forum, I would never use a camera I couldn't trust. If the split screen could damage my footage I wouldn't use this camera under any circunstances.

Diogo Athouguia · February 7th, 2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Or, put another way, all the 1/3rd inch HD cameras leave a lot to be desired in low light (which is the way I'd put it).

Not only the 1/3rd inch cameras but also the 2/3rds inch HD cameras aren't as sensible as 2/3rds DV cameras. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the cinealta you tested had the iris set to the same f-stop as the HD100 under the same light.

Camera - f-stop - Effective ISO rating
HDW-F900/3 CineAlta - Just under 5.6 - Just under 320
HDC27F Varicam - Just under 4 - Just under160
Canon XL H1 - 4 + 1/3 stop - 200
JVC GY-HD100 - Just under 5.6 - Just under 320
Pana AG-HVX200 - 5.6 - 320
Sony HVR-Z1 - 4 - 160

Peter Ferling · February 7th, 2006, 10:54 PM

Tony and Albert, I'm signing back on to thank you for answering.

I hear you Tony, I don't go higher than 3db, I try to keep it at 0 and crank the iris. If the stage is lit, I'm good. Many times I don't find out until the lights go dim, and a few times some uniformed worker just drops them all!

Albert, your experience doesn't sound too encouraging. I emagine that since it's 4 times the data, but the physical size of the CCD's and lens' are the same as with DV cameras, you have more detail but less light. Less light because the actual size of the pixels are smaller?

I don't have the luxury of lighting every situation as if it were a film shoot. I could emagine getting by with some noise, but wouldn't that be also magnified because it's HD?

Obviously when I head over to the vendor, we're gonna have to dim the lights. I have a rental source for the HVX and maybe the Canon H1 (still waiting for them to come in). It'll be a few hours drive to get a hold of an HD100.

I'm not gonna pit these cam's against any charts. I'm just going to see how fast and convenient these are in my real world terms. That is, can I be up and shooting on a tripod in 15-minutes? Can I unhook, shoulder mount and walk outside or into another room where setup changes on the fly. I just don't have the luxury of a 2 hour setup and crew -but have to stand and deliver (something I believe you'd find at your wedding shoots as well).

Ah, I'm rambling, it's midnight, I have two flash files, a photo-shoot and an edit session to do tommorrow...

Thanks for the input.

Tony Goodman · February 8th, 2006, 09:08 AM

That is, can I be up and shooting on a tripod in 15-minutes? Can I unhook, shoulder mount and walk outside or into another room where setup changes on the fly. I just don't have the luxury of a 2 hour setup and crew -but have to stand and deliver (something I believe you'd find at your wedding shoots as well).

Peter

I do not know about the other cameras you are testing but the HD100 has an SD card which can store settings for upto three situations. There are other ways too, you get about six differents presets which can be easily accessed. The SD card can also be used in another HD100.

I have a list of all the venues I have shot and have a short description of each of the rooms I will be shooting in (ceremony, reception,) what type and amount of light available etc. If I have to go to a new venue I visit beforehand, trying to go at the same time of day as the event to get a idea of where the light is coming from and what type it is.

Cheers

Tony

"Failing to prepare, is preparing to fail"

Diogo Athouguia · February 8th, 2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Goodman

I do not know about the other cameras you are testing but the HD100 has an SD card which can store settings for upto three situations.

4 scene files on SD plus 2 on the camera.

Peter Ferling · February 8th, 2006, 11:26 AM

I managed three on the XL1s' internal memory. One for lights up, another for down, and a third for outside. These would get me close enough and I'd do a fine adjust on the iris (including a quick push of the ND filter for a walk outside), all within a fingers reach and without losing focus (the quick focus button also helped in a quick fix while trying to get other settings).

I see, judging by online images, that essential controls on the HD100 is relatively close, just gotta see how it feels when I'm moving about. Speaking of which, I found the XL1's to be very akward in carrying. I got a three point shoulder rig from Varizoom, but I don't want to repeat that again with the H1, which I believe is now even heavier on the front end vs. the XL1. If the HD100 gives me the crisp progressive images I need for trade shows and corporate training, and I'm not all thumbs with it, then I'm sold.

Tony Goodman · February 8th, 2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogo Athouguia

4 scene files on SD plus 2 on the camera.

Diogo

I stand corrected...but I did get the 'Six in total' correct!!

Tony

February 7th, 2006, 02:12 PM	#19
Jiri Bakala Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kelowna BC Canada Posts: 706	It's true that one can INVOKE the SSE problem probably in every camera, however, I found that one really has to work on it to get it. At least with the more recent cameras. In other words, it's not any longer a problem in a day-to-day shooting. __________________ www.ascentfilms.com

February 7th, 2006, 01:29 PM	#16
Tony Goodman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Liverpool, UK Posts: 70	[QUOTE=Peter Ferling]I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here. Pete I composed this post earlier today but my computer crashed and I could not bring myself to write it out again straight away, but I know what you mean. Anyway to give yo my honest if not expert opinion about the Hd100. I do not think the low light problem is nearly as bad as people make out. I have done my own amateur tests in my studio, just pointing the camera at my desk and monitors in what I would consider to be the very poor light, I would certainly have put my light on well before it got to this stage. I observed the following, comparison between the DV and HDV modes of the HD100. The low light perfoprmance of the PD150 is better than the DV pic of the HD100. But I still prefer the overall HD picture to both of them. The light source was almost no daylight and reflected light from an 11w fluorescent desklamp pointed directly at the wall about four feet away from the shot. It was pretty dark! Iris was OPEN and shutter OFF. Shot HDV-HD24p and DV-50i at no gain, 6db and 12db. I would never use more than 12 db at an event. In fact if I think ANY gain is neccessary I light up. The DV signal was brighter but only marginally so to my eyes, and the better resolution and colour representation of the HD signal more than compensated. I much preferred the HD footage. I really do not see low light as a problem with this camera, I am more worried about the disciplines of progressive, but that is more about my inexperience than any deficiency of the camera. I am gradually starting to get decent footage from it and following Marc's comments I feel I might be brave enough to do a wedding in HDV soon. As for your corporate work if you get to know the camera before using it live, I think you will be really pleased with it, especially if the speaker is projected onto a large screen, that is when HDV REALLY does shine! When I bought my camera the dealer projected an image onto an 10ft screen and it was mind boggling how clean it was! Can we finally NAIL one point for good. The SSE problem is no longer a problem! Mine had it and JVC fixed it. And I believe the new models do not have it in the first place. Hope this helpful Cheers Tony

February 7th, 2006, 01:32 PM	#17
Albert Henson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 65	Steer clear of using the hd100 for wedding or live event videography. The cam has bit me in the arse with some of my corporate work. The camera's low light performance still leaves something to be desired, not to mention the SSE problem that may occur when shooting in a run and gun scenario where you won't be able to light each scene adequately. If you are a dedicated cinematographer shooting under controlled circumstances, then the cam will work great for you. Pro HD or HDV as a format is great and even a wedding vids will benefit from it's undeniable clarity. I don't care what anyone says, each and every unit out there still has the SSE problem. Adjust the knee-strech the blacks whatever. The SSE is still an intermittent issue no matter what you do-you must be able to control your lighting environment in a regimental manner in order to reap the full benefits of what this camera can deliver. Great if your a film maker-not so great for eng or event videography.

February 7th, 2006, 10:54 PM	#22
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Tony and Albert, I'm signing back on to thank you for answering. I hear you Tony, I don't go higher than 3db, I try to keep it at 0 and crank the iris. If the stage is lit, I'm good. Many times I don't find out until the lights go dim, and a few times some uniformed worker just drops them all! Albert, your experience doesn't sound too encouraging. I emagine that since it's 4 times the data, but the physical size of the CCD's and lens' are the same as with DV cameras, you have more detail but less light. Less light because the actual size of the pixels are smaller? I don't have the luxury of lighting every situation as if it were a film shoot. I could emagine getting by with some noise, but wouldn't that be also magnified because it's HD? Obviously when I head over to the vendor, we're gonna have to dim the lights. I have a rental source for the HVX and maybe the Canon H1 (still waiting for them to come in). It'll be a few hours drive to get a hold of an HD100. I'm not gonna pit these cam's against any charts. I'm just going to see how fast and convenient these are in my real world terms. That is, can I be up and shooting on a tripod in 15-minutes? Can I unhook, shoulder mount and walk outside or into another room where setup changes on the fly. I just don't have the luxury of a 2 hour setup and crew -but have to stand and deliver (something I believe you'd find at your wedding shoots as well). Ah, I'm rambling, it's midnight, I have two flash files, a photo-shoot and an edit session to do tommorrow... Thanks for the input.

February 8th, 2006, 09:08 AM	#23
Tony Goodman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Liverpool, UK Posts: 70	That is, can I be up and shooting on a tripod in 15-minutes? Can I unhook, shoulder mount and walk outside or into another room where setup changes on the fly. I just don't have the luxury of a 2 hour setup and crew -but have to stand and deliver (something I believe you'd find at your wedding shoots as well). Peter I do not know about the other cameras you are testing but the HD100 has an SD card which can store settings for upto three situations. There are other ways too, you get about six differents presets which can be easily accessed. The SD card can also be used in another HD100. I have a list of all the venues I have shot and have a short description of each of the rooms I will be shooting in (ceremony, reception,) what type and amount of light available etc. If I have to go to a new venue I visit beforehand, trying to go at the same time of day as the event to get a idea of where the light is coming from and what type it is. Cheers Tony "Failing to prepare, is preparing to fail"

February 8th, 2006, 11:26 AM	#25
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	I managed three on the XL1s' internal memory. One for lights up, another for down, and a third for outside. These would get me close enough and I'd do a fine adjust on the iris (including a quick push of the ND filter for a walk outside), all within a fingers reach and without losing focus (the quick focus button also helped in a quick fix while trying to get other settings). I see, judging by online images, that essential controls on the HD100 is relatively close, just gotta see how it feels when I'm moving about. Speaking of which, I found the XL1's to be very akward in carrying. I got a three point shoulder rig from Varizoom, but I don't want to repeat that again with the H1, which I believe is now even heavier on the front end vs. the XL1. If the HD100 gives me the crisp progressive images I need for trade shows and corporate training, and I'm not all thumbs with it, then I'm sold.