|
|||||||||
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
February 5th, 2006, 12:53 AM | #1 |
New Boot
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18
|
Question regarding use of 'Film-Out'
I'm fairly new to DV/HDV capture and editing. My question regards the use of the FILM-OUT function which as I understand, supplies the correct color information needed to correctly transcribe to film for projected release. (The color of the FILM-OUT almost reminds me of a 35mm one-light work print).
My questions are three fold.. 1) From reading everything I can find on this site I understand that in order to effectively use the FILM-OUT option that I need a monitor that can interpret the signal so that it can be correctly viewed during image capture... and that the cheapest monitors that can do this are in the $3000 range. Is this correct or is there a less expensive monitor that will work. Perhaps using some sort of software to change the gamma before reaching the monitor? 2) With the idea of shooting for possible release on film in mind is it possible to shoot using FILM-OUT but then create an HDV or SDV color correct version for initial viewing from it (for DVD)...thus having the FILM-OUT version in the event that something is to be distributed on film later? I am not sure if this is a question for the HD100U forum or not as it may be more of a software question. I am using Vegas 6.0c. 3) With regards to the above question, how bad does a laser transfer look from HD 24p 'CINELIKE' when laser scanned to film? Is it usable or is there simply not enough color flexibility left for the film in processing? Thanks in advance! |
February 5th, 2006, 04:51 AM | #2 |
Major Player
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 245
|
Hi Scott,
I afraid I don't have the answers to your questions but these are questions that I would also like to know the answers to. I can only imagine you must have something half scannable even with the CINELIKE setting. 28 days later was shot on xl1s and they seemed to do alright and I don't think the xl1 has a FILMOUT setting but on the other hand I could be wrong? Cheers for now Greg C |
February 5th, 2006, 10:34 PM | #3 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 123
|
Film-out not recommended
Hi Greg and Scott,
I have filmed out a bunch of HD100 footage and have tested the camera's film-out setting. I plan to do a more extensive post on the results, but in summary, do not use it. The idea of recording the data with linear gamma (no gamma correction) sounds interesting but makes no sense in an 8-bit format. Linear gamma bunches a lot of the picture information into the low end and once the camera commits that signal to an 8 bit environment, you've lost a lot of your picture information for good. When you try to bring back your mids you will see horrible noise. I have seen the results first hand in both the color correction suite and in film out. Trust me. The result is ugly. The setting was added at the last minute on a filmmaker's request, but appears to have never been tested. The default setting isn't too bad, but whatever you do, turn detail way down (I'm using MIN). For more latitude, try playing with black stretch and Manual Knee 80%, but do tests on your subject before committing to these settings. Nothing comes without a cost. You may also want to boost color gain a little, but that's personal taste. I hope to post some recommendations, once I get a chance to test them. Good luck.
__________________
Andy Young Director/DP www.ArchipelagoFilms.com VP, Special Projects www.DuArt.com |
February 5th, 2006, 11:15 PM | #4 |
Major Player
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hollywood, California
Posts: 899
|
Andrew,
I found that turning detail off or WAY down gives you almost a out of focus look, or VERY soft, like the Barbara Walters interviews. Once you shoot like that you can't get it back. I try to keep mine at -3. But sometimes I leave it at 0. I did see your tests in LA and I thought they were great but the basement "film" look clips seemed very soft. I think the detail down is the reason.
__________________
Visit me and my work at www.artofduke.com |
February 5th, 2006, 11:45 PM | #5 |
New Boot
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18
|
Thanks Andrew! I (we) look forward to any further info you may get. In a way that makes things easier. For now I'll just stick to the Cine-Look function.
|
February 5th, 2006, 11:54 PM | #6 | |
Wrangler
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
|
Quote:
OFF is only doing damage if in fact it is blurring things. If you shoot with Min, you can always add more later in post if you want. Again, I think the bigger and more high-res the display, the less detail you want. Seeing how the detail circuit is actually destroying your signal when you project on a 30' screen is disturbing.
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net |
|
February 6th, 2006, 02:39 AM | #7 | |
Trustee
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,065
|
me too
Quote:
Any chance there'll be a white paper or something to that effect from JVC on this issue? It would obviously clear up some confusion for us.... John |
|
February 6th, 2006, 02:04 PM | #8 |
Major Player
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 245
|
Thanks Andrew, Brian, Scott, Nate et al
Thanks guys,
It seems this detail issue is fast becoming the new point for discussion on the block. Problem is as was said elsewhere in this thread. It's a hard thing to detect unless you start blowing things up. I start to get an idea on my 23" Sony hd tv but I don't rate the qaulity of the thing enough to even trust that. However I do start to get a sense of how 'detail off' may leave the image feeling too soft. I think it may be the case that Off is a filter and min is truly off but it's real stab in the dark stuff. I'm starting a shoot on my own project in a couple of weeks. It's the culmination of about three years work and, to be honest, I'm sh**ing it. I've spent the last couple of months trying to test, unscientifically I might add, the cameras abilities but I don't think you ever feel ready. I think I will post my prefered setting a couple of days before shooting just to see if anyone can see any real floors then close my eyes and jump (and we do this for fun?) anyway thanks again guys for the helpful feedback I just hope I don't lose complete confidence and decide to shoot the whole thing in the nice b&w setting I got the other day (what a cop out that would be). Anyway, better go loads to do. Allthe best guys Greg C (staring into the void) |
February 6th, 2006, 11:24 PM | #9 | |||
Wrangler
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,637
|
Quote:
Quote:
However, as Andrew mentioned, I fear that because of the way information is encoded with HDV in the lower IRE levels, as well as "banding" produced by 8-bit, the FILMOUT curve might actually reveal some bad artifacting once you bring the gamma curve back up. I'd like to see some tests with uncompressed FILMOUT via the wafian or a Kona/Decklink capture card. Quote:
Assuming FILMOUT linear response curve doesn't work well with HDV, then the ideal approach for filmout would be to shoot with the lowest knee and highest black stretch, capturing as much dynamic range as possible, and then use a digital intermediate suite (digital colour correction) before the filmout. In professional DI suites, you can load a LUT (Look-up table) for the stock(s) you will use, and then WYSIWYG on the HD projector.
__________________
Tim Dashwood |
|||
February 7th, 2006, 07:39 AM | #10 | |
Trustee
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,214
|
Quote:
|
|
| ||||||
|
|