Final Cut Pro 5

Charles Lacey · January 28th, 2006, 04:40 PM

I am new to HDV. I have an HD100 (love it) and I am editing with Final Cut Pro 5. I am capturing and editing using the Apple intermediate codec. Is there a way to monitor the video using the camera as an interface to an SD TV? I have read that you can at least see still frames, but I can't seem to see squat. Am I missing something or can it not be done? I don't even see video on the flip out LCD.

Thanks,
CL

Boyd Ostroff · January 28th, 2006, 06:22 PM

Sorry don't know anything about the HD100, but FCP5 can't send HDV previews over firewire in realtime. With my Z1 I can't even choose the camera as a video playback device in the Audio/Video Settiings dialog. I am using the HDV 1080i60 easy setup however. Why are you using AIC? My understanding was that this can cause a quality loss, but I'm still pretty new to HDV (but not FCP).

AFAIK, the only way to monitor HDV is digital cinema desktop or a hardware capture card. Digital cinema desktop definitely shows your video at lower quality (which scared me because it looked like my footage was really noisy when in fact it was fine :-) but it's a low cost way to use a second monitor.

Charles Lacey · January 28th, 2006, 09:56 PM

Thanks for your reply Boyd. From what I understand using the Apple intermediate codec helps maintain the quality over HDV. Since HDV is an mpeg compression that uses the whole GOP thang, it is very different than DV. With DV if you only do cuts, it doesn't have to recompress which saves quality. HDV has to recompress even if you only do cuts due to the way it compresses. Supposedly, the AIC doesn't require that. It also supposedly makes rendering and editing faster since the processor doesn't have to deal with the highly compressed format of HDV. uncompressing and recompressing. I don't claim to be an expert so I could be wrong.

I'm not a big time cinematographer, but I could play one on TV.

thanks,
CL

Boyd Ostroff · January 29th, 2006, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Lacey

HDV has to recompress even if you only do cuts due to the way it compresses. Supposedly, the AIC doesn't require that. It also supposedly makes rendering and editing faster since the processor doesn't have to deal with the highly compressed format of HDV.

Hmm, I know that AIC is supposed to work better on slower machines (and is used by FCE and iMovie HD), but I thought I'd read there was a quality issue. Seems hard to find anything definitive however...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&highlight=AIC
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&highlight=AIC
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&highlight=AIC

Charles Lacey · January 29th, 2006, 10:06 AM

Well. That doesn't clear up much does it? Maybe I'll try a test. I'll capture a short clip via HDV the other via AIC add some color correcting to both and save as a quicktime mov. What do ya think. I did this before and I think that the results were that the AIC version held better detail. But I'm curious now that I know more.

Boyd Ostroff · January 29th, 2006, 10:28 AM

Great idea. I suggest you then start a thread in our FCP for HD forum (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=104) to discuss your findings since I think this should be of general interest

Randall Brown · January 29th, 2006, 10:53 AM

I just shot a piece and I needed to mix Beta, DV, and HDV. I put it all in a DV timeline in FCP, and FCP pushed it out realtime to monitor via firewire. I even recomposed shots of the HD (scale and movement), in the timeline and it kept up. A HUGE change from my old Dual G4 500mhz.

In your case, you could put it on a DV timeline, cut there so you can monitor it out via firewire, and then copy and paste back into a highdef timeline for final rendering.

What type of machine are you working on? I have a Dual 2.7 G5, 2.5GB Ram. I was shocked with what it was able to handle realtime. Set your plabyack of RT Effects to dynamic. I am using FCP 5

Charles Lacey · January 29th, 2006, 12:02 PM

Well I did it. Captured the same clip twice. One using AIC for capture and sequence settings and the other HDV. I applied the three way color corrector to both with identical settings and put both all the way through the process to a Quicktime movie which I encoded for H264 @ 6.75 mbps using the compressor presets.

The quick result is that there is NO quality difference between the two. No detail or color difference that is percievable (at least not in this clip). The only difference is that AIC edits faster with less rendering but it's twice the size. I've blown them up to 200%-400% and simply cannot see any difference between the two. I'll post some stills and mov files later this evening or tomorrow so that others can compare.

Disclaimer: I did not view these with a broadcast monitor. I am not so fortunate as of yet. Yet!

I'm not a big time cienematographer, but I could play one on TV.

Charles Lacey · January 29th, 2006, 12:10 PM

Interesting Randall. We have the exact same machine. Dual 2.7 with 2.5 GB Ram. I was amazed with the realtime effects as well. I have been able to run two layers of video with 3-way color correction and audio EQ, all in realtime.

I couldn't do that with the old G4 1.2

I didn't realize you could edit HDV in an SD project and then go back up to HD with it in FCP 5. Hmmmmm. I'll have to look into that.

Thanks,
CL

Boyd Ostroff · January 29th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Lacey

and put both all the way through the process to a Quicktime movie which I encoded for H264 @ 6.75 mbps using the compressor presets.

Seems like the H.264 step would have an effect on the final quality such that you aren't really comparing the difference between native HDV and AIC. I would want to send the HDV and AIC footage back to the camera and record to tape, then view the results on a good monitor using component video. Might also be interesting to export some still frames as uncompressed TIFF and compare in Photoshop.

But if your main interest is in what the results look like when encoded as H.264 then I guess your test is valid.

Charles Lacey · January 29th, 2006, 12:37 PM

I also exported them to mov files using HDV and AIC codecs and there was no difference. I am assuming that by exporting HDV to a HDV Quicktime file you would get the same result as going to HDV tape. Since it would have to re-compress. Is that the case? I'll try sending them back to tape to see if there is a difference.

Tim Dashwood · January 29th, 2006, 11:01 PM

In my tests with AIC and HDV I've found no perceivable difference between in image quality between the two. AIC is supposed to be a "lossless" codec specifically designed for HDV. Make sure you are using AIC version 1.0.1 for best results, and set the option for the codec to 720P.

January 28th, 2006, 04:40 PM	#1
Charles Lacey New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 11	Final Cut Pro 5 - HD100 interface to SD TV? I am new to HDV. I have an HD100 (love it) and I am editing with Final Cut Pro 5. I am capturing and editing using the Apple intermediate codec. Is there a way to monitor the video using the camera as an interface to an SD TV? I have read that you can at least see still frames, but I can't seem to see squat. Am I missing something or can it not be done? I don't even see video on the flip out LCD. Thanks, CL

January 29th, 2006, 10:53 AM	#7
Randall Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 40	Might have a solution.. I just shot a piece and I needed to mix Beta, DV, and HDV. I put it all in a DV timeline in FCP, and FCP pushed it out realtime to monitor via firewire. I even recomposed shots of the HD (scale and movement), in the timeline and it kept up. A HUGE change from my old Dual G4 500mhz. In your case, you could put it on a DV timeline, cut there so you can monitor it out via firewire, and then copy and paste back into a highdef timeline for final rendering. What type of machine are you working on? I have a Dual 2.7 G5, 2.5GB Ram. I was shocked with what it was able to handle realtime. Set your plabyack of RT Effects to dynamic. I am using FCP 5

January 29th, 2006, 11:01 PM	#12
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	In my tests with AIC and HDV I've found no perceivable difference between in image quality between the two. AIC is supposed to be a "lossless" codec specifically designed for HDV. Make sure you are using AIC version 1.0.1 for best results, and set the option for the codec to 720P. __________________ Tim Dashwood

January 28th, 2006, 06:22 PM	#2
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Sorry don't know anything about the HD100, but FCP5 can't send HDV previews over firewire in realtime. With my Z1 I can't even choose the camera as a video playback device in the Audio/Video Settiings dialog. I am using the HDV 1080i60 easy setup however. Why are you using AIC? My understanding was that this can cause a quality loss, but I'm still pretty new to HDV (but not FCP). AFAIK, the only way to monitor HDV is digital cinema desktop or a hardware capture card. Digital cinema desktop definitely shows your video at lower quality (which scared me because it looked like my footage was really noisy when in fact it was fine :-) but it's a low cost way to use a second monitor.

January 28th, 2006, 09:56 PM	#3
Charles Lacey New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 11	Thanks for your reply Boyd. From what I understand using the Apple intermediate codec helps maintain the quality over HDV. Since HDV is an mpeg compression that uses the whole GOP thang, it is very different than DV. With DV if you only do cuts, it doesn't have to recompress which saves quality. HDV has to recompress even if you only do cuts due to the way it compresses. Supposedly, the AIC doesn't require that. It also supposedly makes rendering and editing faster since the processor doesn't have to deal with the highly compressed format of HDV. uncompressing and recompressing. I don't claim to be an expert so I could be wrong. I'm not a big time cinematographer, but I could play one on TV. thanks, CL

January 29th, 2006, 10:06 AM	#5
Charles Lacey New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 11	Well. That doesn't clear up much does it? Maybe I'll try a test. I'll capture a short clip via HDV the other via AIC add some color correcting to both and save as a quicktime mov. What do ya think. I did this before and I think that the results were that the AIC version held better detail. But I'm curious now that I know more.

January 29th, 2006, 10:28 AM	#6
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Great idea. I suggest you then start a thread in our FCP for HD forum (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=104) to discuss your findings since I think this should be of general interest

January 29th, 2006, 12:02 PM	#8
Charles Lacey New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 11	Well I did it. Captured the same clip twice. One using AIC for capture and sequence settings and the other HDV. I applied the three way color corrector to both with identical settings and put both all the way through the process to a Quicktime movie which I encoded for H264 @ 6.75 mbps using the compressor presets. The quick result is that there is NO quality difference between the two. No detail or color difference that is percievable (at least not in this clip). The only difference is that AIC edits faster with less rendering but it's twice the size. I've blown them up to 200%-400% and simply cannot see any difference between the two. I'll post some stills and mov files later this evening or tomorrow so that others can compare. Disclaimer: I did not view these with a broadcast monitor. I am not so fortunate as of yet. Yet! I'm not a big time cienematographer, but I could play one on TV.

January 29th, 2006, 12:10 PM	#9
Charles Lacey New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 11	Interesting Randall. We have the exact same machine. Dual 2.7 with 2.5 GB Ram. I was amazed with the realtime effects as well. I have been able to run two layers of video with 3-way color correction and audio EQ, all in realtime. I couldn't do that with the old G4 1.2 I didn't realize you could edit HDV in an SD project and then go back up to HD with it in FCP 5. Hmmmmm. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, CL

January 29th, 2006, 12:37 PM	#11
Charles Lacey New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 11	I also exported them to mov files using HDV and AIC codecs and there was no difference. I am assuming that by exporting HDV to a HDV Quicktime file you would get the same result as going to HDV tape. Since it would have to re-compress. Is that the case? I'll try sending them back to tape to see if there is a difference.