Low-Light Stage Play

John Mitchell · December 6th, 2005, 09:45 AM

Um - I've shot 3 dance concerts with this camera. Some spotlit performances. Even when I did see SSE (which was with my first camera, an early unit) it wasn't such that it would be immediately obvious, especially in a cut video. IMO, since I've exchanged it, the new cam outperformed the 3 Sony DSR 300s I was shooting with, with deeper blacks and comparable noise levels. I shot with no gain mostly between F1.4 and F4, so focus is critical on close ups and it takes plenty of practice with the viewfinder, but once you "get it" you can follow pretty well. I pushed the colours to match the Sony's and all cams were set to 3200K preset. Colour match is really close.

I think it's premature to say this camera is not going to work in these situations. It's unreasonable to say it won't work without even trying it.

While not quite as fast as the interlaced half inch cameras (I'm guessing about 2 stops) it works and more than holds it's own (I was shooting SD). I bought this camera primarily for interview work, but am surprised how well it held up in a live situation.

Peter Moore · December 6th, 2005, 10:27 AM

Ok, well I will grant that I could be wrong cause I haven't seen some footage.

Can anyone point to footage or even stills?

Barry Green · December 6th, 2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Are you getting back on the horse Barry?

Not right away. The window of opportunity for what I was going to do has kind of passed. Perhaps in a few months. I will say that it certainly performed better than the last one, and that's a good sign. The codec is far more robust than the Sony! But the images were just as sharp, as long as the JVC was kept in a similar focal range.

I wish it had been like this three months ago!

John Mitchell · December 6th, 2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Moore

Ok, well I will grant that I could be wrong cause I haven't seen some footage.

Can anyone point to footage or even stills?

Peter I'm on a really tight schedule at the moment. Perhaps when things settle down I can post some concert footage for you and label all the cameras so you can see how it cut.

Otherwise there is footage from the HD100 in various situations posted on this website - just do a search. To see what this camera is really capable of have a look at the mini35 music video Nate Weaver shot.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=55111

Peter Moore · December 7th, 2005, 08:09 AM

I'm specifically interested in any footage or stills showing the SSE. Is there any? Thanks.

Peter Moore · December 9th, 2005, 08:20 AM

Can no one even show us a still?

John Mitchell · December 10th, 2005, 08:50 AM

Peter I think there are stills already posted somewhere, but really if something is there for a few frames, showing a still frame isn't really doing the camera justice. You have to see the effect in moving footage to decide if it something that is going to impact on your audience/workflow.

I think Tim Dashwood posted some night footage early on that clearly showed SSE at one point. Do a search or PM Tim directly - I'm sure he'll point you inthe right direction. From memory it was lit with street lanterns and was an exterior.

Peter Moore · December 11th, 2005, 12:22 PM

Ah thanks. Is this an example of it?

http://www.mooreusa.net/sse.jpg

Peter Moore · December 13th, 2005, 05:41 PM

All these complaints about SSE, and no one can tell me whether this is it or not?

Council Bradshaw · December 13th, 2005, 07:09 PM

Yes that is an example. At least from what I've learned and seen from others post. I've also seen that video sequence that your jpg came from and there are a few other shots that have it as well. However the fist time I saw the video I never noticed the split screen. But remember this video was shot with available light and I think with some gain added. (+9 maybe)

Peter Moore · December 13th, 2005, 10:40 PM

Thanks. Ok I just wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining it.

I don't know, this is a close call. The unpredictability of it is the problem. Do I use the Z1, a known entity, and spend the days of computing time converting to 24p, or use this at native 24p and risk driving myself nuts with this bug?

I still say they should never have released this camera unfixed. Too late now I guess.

Giuseppe Pugliese · December 14th, 2005, 04:44 AM

This is for Peter Moore and anyone else out there worried about the split-screen problem, that photo you just posted up, is from what i see not showing the SSE problem as I know it... it seems like in that photo you are just looking at the blocks of the mpeg 2 compression... (I could be wrong i have not seen the full res. shot of the small photo you just posted, and if im correct that photo is a screen shot from footage of a girl running in the street, if so and you have seen the footage where she fall down and you can see the street and the SPLIT SCREEN then YES THIS IS WHAT EVERYONS WORRIED ABOUT)

but if you are thinking that from that little photo that’s what the SSE problem is, its much worse looking than that... I have seen lots of footage with the split screen problem, some much worse than others. The split happens at exactly 50% of the screen and is noticeable when you shoot on many different darker situations. It also will happen when you shoot something like a bright light or lit object, with a very dark area in the same shot. There is a post of a shot that you can clearly see the SSE problem posted here... http://www.cineform.com/video/slomo2.wmv ... the split is right around where the wall on the left intersects with the sky on the right(the satilite dish shows the split the best). Straight down the middle you will see the shade difference. (This is also not the best example, but this does show you that it can happen in a "day time" shot.)

[EDIT]... the second half of that footage with the darker fast moving shots, you can see that there is NO SSE problem at all [END EDIT]

Now there is good news (no I’m not about to tell you how much i saved with an insurance company) this problem is completely predictable from what I’ve learned, and if you plan to take your time and setup your shots, and check your monitors, and properly light things, then you are going to be fine. I think the trick for getting low light shots with the camera is to stretch your blacks a bit (by 3) on the settings of the camera. This will help with getting some more black in the shots without having to have such a dark "set". Now i am speaking from a film maker point of view, where (most of the time) we have a certain amount of control over our shots and lighting... If this is coming from someone who will want to shoot events and other things like that its basically get in there and shoot, i have limited experience and know-how with this cameras ability in that realm.

I will say this... I was VERY worried about this cameras ability to shoot and have this split screen problem. But now with footage I’ve seen (again I don’t have the camera in my hands to test yet), and I’ve seen quite a bit of footage, you can work around this and if you setup is proper you will not run into a major problem. That said, I am willing to shoot my new film (budget around $50,000) with this camera properly set up (and a good 60% of my film calls for VERY dark shots). This camera really does an incredible job with all of the footage I’ve seen (I’m talking looks like REAL film!), and I have to say with the features, settings, and control this professional camera has, it is at the top of its game in my book... Everything else I’ve seen and used still looks like video to me... This hits the spot with the real film look in my book (granted you don’t have money for a varicam or cinealta).

It comes down to this... rent or borrow (steal from a buddy, haha) the camera and put it through its paces... use it in the situations that you know you will be using it for, and most importantly .... VIEW IT ON AN HDTV right out of the camera (remember the component output will not give you the 24p look, the component out is 60p, so don’t worry when you say 'wait this looks like "720i" ). When you look at everything in its native format on an HDTV that’s when you are sure what you shot is what you want.

Hope you have a great time with it, and good luck!

Peter Moore · December 14th, 2005, 02:23 PM

Saw that WMV. Wow, that's even worse. That's completely unacceptable.

I hear what you're saying about framing the shots predictably. We're shooting a live play though. We don't have time or even ability to be picky about our shots or adjust camera settings on the fly when the lights get dark. So while I'll rent the camera to shoot some movies, I don't think I will rent it for the live show.

Giuseppe Pugliese · December 14th, 2005, 02:35 PM

yeah unfortunately it is what it is... i have a feeling jvc had this camera tailored to film shoots anyway... this would not be good for shooting uncontrolled lighting in my opinion. but if you do have the chance to rent it im sure you will get some good shots out of it regardless... now i understand that the wmv that you saw that i posted might be from the early camera (after words jvc said they "fixed" the problem on the newer ones)

so again, its really just about you getting the camera in your hands and actually seeing for yourself

[add-on] ... by the way... is this stage play lit for video? (usually means brighter lighting setups)

Peter Moore · December 14th, 2005, 05:40 PM

Yeah all sounds about right. No, it's not going to be lit for video. I could insist on it, I suppose, but I think it would be quite distracting for the audience to see such a bright stage even if the DVD will look kickass. The event is really more about the live show, with the DVD just being an archive.

December 14th, 2005, 04:44 AM	#42
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	my outlook on this camera... This is for Peter Moore and anyone else out there worried about the split-screen problem, that photo you just posted up, is from what i see not showing the SSE problem as I know it... it seems like in that photo you are just looking at the blocks of the mpeg 2 compression... (I could be wrong i have not seen the full res. shot of the small photo you just posted, and if im correct that photo is a screen shot from footage of a girl running in the street, if so and you have seen the footage where she fall down and you can see the street and the SPLIT SCREEN then YES THIS IS WHAT EVERYONS WORRIED ABOUT) but if you are thinking that from that little photo that’s what the SSE problem is, its much worse looking than that... I have seen lots of footage with the split screen problem, some much worse than others. The split happens at exactly 50% of the screen and is noticeable when you shoot on many different darker situations. It also will happen when you shoot something like a bright light or lit object, with a very dark area in the same shot. There is a post of a shot that you can clearly see the SSE problem posted here... http://www.cineform.com/video/slomo2.wmv ... the split is right around where the wall on the left intersects with the sky on the right(the satilite dish shows the split the best). Straight down the middle you will see the shade difference. (This is also not the best example, but this does show you that it can happen in a "day time" shot.) [EDIT]... the second half of that footage with the darker fast moving shots, you can see that there is NO SSE problem at all [END EDIT] Now there is good news (no I’m not about to tell you how much i saved with an insurance company) this problem is completely predictable from what I’ve learned, and if you plan to take your time and setup your shots, and check your monitors, and properly light things, then you are going to be fine. I think the trick for getting low light shots with the camera is to stretch your blacks a bit (by 3) on the settings of the camera. This will help with getting some more black in the shots without having to have such a dark "set". Now i am speaking from a film maker point of view, where (most of the time) we have a certain amount of control over our shots and lighting... If this is coming from someone who will want to shoot events and other things like that its basically get in there and shoot, i have limited experience and know-how with this cameras ability in that realm. I will say this... I was VERY worried about this cameras ability to shoot and have this split screen problem. But now with footage I’ve seen (again I don’t have the camera in my hands to test yet), and I’ve seen quite a bit of footage, you can work around this and if you setup is proper you will not run into a major problem. That said, I am willing to shoot my new film (budget around $50,000) with this camera properly set up (and a good 60% of my film calls for VERY dark shots). This camera really does an incredible job with all of the footage I’ve seen (I’m talking looks like REAL film!), and I have to say with the features, settings, and control this professional camera has, it is at the top of its game in my book... Everything else I’ve seen and used still looks like video to me... This hits the spot with the real film look in my book (granted you don’t have money for a varicam or cinealta). It comes down to this... rent or borrow (steal from a buddy, haha) the camera and put it through its paces... use it in the situations that you know you will be using it for, and most importantly .... VIEW IT ON AN HDTV right out of the camera (remember the component output will not give you the 24p look, the component out is 60p, so don’t worry when you say 'wait this looks like "720i" ). When you look at everything in its native format on an HDTV that’s when you are sure what you shot is what you want. Hope you have a great time with it, and good luck!

December 6th, 2005, 09:45 AM	#31
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Um - I've shot 3 dance concerts with this camera. Some spotlit performances. Even when I did see SSE (which was with my first camera, an early unit) it wasn't such that it would be immediately obvious, especially in a cut video. IMO, since I've exchanged it, the new cam outperformed the 3 Sony DSR 300s I was shooting with, with deeper blacks and comparable noise levels. I shot with no gain mostly between F1.4 and F4, so focus is critical on close ups and it takes plenty of practice with the viewfinder, but once you "get it" you can follow pretty well. I pushed the colours to match the Sony's and all cams were set to 3200K preset. Colour match is really close. I think it's premature to say this camera is not going to work in these situations. It's unreasonable to say it won't work without even trying it. While not quite as fast as the interlaced half inch cameras (I'm guessing about 2 stops) it works and more than holds it's own (I was shooting SD). I bought this camera primarily for interview work, but am surprised how well it held up in a live situation.

December 6th, 2005, 10:27 AM	#32
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Ok, well I will grant that I could be wrong cause I haven't seen some footage. Can anyone point to footage or even stills?

December 7th, 2005, 08:09 AM	#35
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I'm specifically interested in any footage or stills showing the SSE. Is there any? Thanks.

December 9th, 2005, 08:20 AM	#36
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Can no one even show us a still?

December 10th, 2005, 08:50 AM	#37
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Peter I think there are stills already posted somewhere, but really if something is there for a few frames, showing a still frame isn't really doing the camera justice. You have to see the effect in moving footage to decide if it something that is going to impact on your audience/workflow. I think Tim Dashwood posted some night footage early on that clearly showed SSE at one point. Do a search or PM Tim directly - I'm sure he'll point you inthe right direction. From memory it was lit with street lanterns and was an exterior.

December 11th, 2005, 12:22 PM	#38
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Ah thanks. Is this an example of it? http://www.mooreusa.net/sse.jpg

December 13th, 2005, 05:41 PM	#39
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	All these complaints about SSE, and no one can tell me whether this is it or not?

December 13th, 2005, 07:09 PM	#40
Council Bradshaw Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 44	Yes that is an example. At least from what I've learned and seen from others post. I've also seen that video sequence that your jpg came from and there are a few other shots that have it as well. However the fist time I saw the video I never noticed the split screen. But remember this video was shot with available light and I think with some gain added. (+9 maybe)

December 13th, 2005, 10:40 PM	#41
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Thanks. Ok I just wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining it. I don't know, this is a close call. The unpredictability of it is the problem. Do I use the Z1, a known entity, and spend the days of computing time converting to 24p, or use this at native 24p and risk driving myself nuts with this bug? I still say they should never have released this camera unfixed. Too late now I guess.

December 14th, 2005, 02:23 PM	#43
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Saw that WMV. Wow, that's even worse. That's completely unacceptable. I hear what you're saying about framing the shots predictably. We're shooting a live play though. We don't have time or even ability to be picky about our shots or adjust camera settings on the fly when the lights get dark. So while I'll rent the camera to shoot some movies, I don't think I will rent it for the live show.

December 14th, 2005, 02:35 PM	#44
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	yeah unfortunately it is what it is... i have a feeling jvc had this camera tailored to film shoots anyway... this would not be good for shooting uncontrolled lighting in my opinion. but if you do have the chance to rent it im sure you will get some good shots out of it regardless... now i understand that the wmv that you saw that i posted might be from the early camera (after words jvc said they "fixed" the problem on the newer ones) so again, its really just about you getting the camera in your hands and actually seeing for yourself [add-on] ... by the way... is this stage play lit for video? (usually means brighter lighting setups)

December 14th, 2005, 05:40 PM	#45
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Yeah all sounds about right. No, it's not going to be lit for video. I could insist on it, I suppose, but I think it would be quite distracting for the audience to see such a bright stage even if the DVD will look kickass. The event is really more about the live show, with the DVD just being an archive.