So... How to edit it on PC? at DVinfo.net

Jose L. Martínez Díaz · November 26th, 2005, 02:22 PM

I was one of the first happy buyers of this camera in my country, and I've been using it extensively (in DV SD mode) with no complaints but...

What are the options available for editing HDV 24 / 25P in the Windows world?. When I was considering which camera to buy, both Avid and Adobe were to support ProHD. Premiere 2.0 is still missing, and Xpress Pro HD in its 5.2 version does not support PAL or 24p HDV, so, is there any way available, or in short term, to edit ProHD 24/25P in PC, apart from Cineform?.

Would it be too destructive to use DVHSCap to get the transport stream and import it in an Avid DVCPRO 23,976 project?.

Thanks for your answers.

Jose

Robert Niemann · November 26th, 2005, 03:42 PM

Well, I only know this way:

- Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5
- Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5.1 Update (HDV Plug-in)
- CineForm Aspect HD/Connect HD/Prospect HD

Guy Barwood · November 26th, 2005, 09:24 PM

Avid Liquid 7 supports a full 25p or 30p workflow from the JVC camera, but for 24p you need to capture with a third party tool and import native 24p files. Liquid supports 24p timelines no problem, it just doesn't support the capture process at the moment and isn't into pulldowns.... The workflow I have heard of is using DVHSCap to capture 24p, another tool to do the pulldown (can't remember what that is called), then import the native 24p assets. If this can be batched then it really isn't all that much extra time to be able to work in 24p with Liquid.

Steve Mullen · November 26th, 2005, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose L. Martínez Díaz

so, is there any way available, or in short term, to edit ProHD 24/25P in PC, apart from Cineform?.

Why on earth would you want anything besides AspectHD?

Guy Barwood · November 26th, 2005, 11:18 PM

Because there is not only one solution that works and Aspect isn't the be it and end all of solutions but mearly an interim step for those NLEs than can't handle native HDV.

Steve Mullen · November 27th, 2005, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

but for 24p you need to capture with a third party tool and import native 24p files.

As you said, it's not an integrated solution.

Guy Barwood · November 27th, 2005, 01:15 AM

So what? No solution is perfect. Cineform needs a hell of a lot of rendering going in and out that native editing and the workflow for 24p above I detailed doesn't. Each solution has its pros and cons, only a fool would discount one solution over another becuase of something petty.

Steve Mullen · November 27th, 2005, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

Cineform needs a hell of a lot of rendering going in.

You should get your facts correct. The "rendering" as you call it is faster that RT so you have no waiting. Then you have RT FX, something I doubt you get with Liquid which uses Background rendering. I've reviewed every version of Liquid from the one FAST did for Sony. I don't hate it at all! But, FAST products never worked well and neither did Pinnacle products. Just because it is now sold by Avid doesn't mean it's a better product or any easier to learn.

The one advantage it has -- and ONLY for a cuts-only timeline (which is a very rare bird) is Smart GOP splicing.

As someone said on the Avid list when someone wanted a comparison of Xpro and Liquid --" "Have we gone crazy! If Avid hadn't bought it would any Avid owner have even given a moment's thought about a Pinnacle Product!"

I'm offended by Avid even listing it as "Avid Liquid" as it's a con job, IMHO.

Kevin Shaw · November 27th, 2005, 02:06 AM

Canopus has indicated that they will support the 24p mode from the HD100U camera soon in Edius. No firm date yet.

Mouayed Zabtia · November 27th, 2005, 03:53 AM

Where u read that kevin , I spook to Canopus Paris and the result is negative , Canopus doesn’t have any plant to upgrade this year , they didn't writhe any thing on them site , I wish if avid adobe or canopus writhe some thing in site , there's no point why this company doesn't do that or release any sheet yet

Guy Barwood · November 27th, 2005, 05:02 AM

The rendering is dependant on system capabilities and I don't think any system you can buy today can output back to tape in RT, you have to render the whole timeline which is very time consuming on even high end systems.

"Then you have RT FX, something I doubt you get with Liquid which uses Background rendering"
I'm not going to bother explaining the RTFX capabilities of Liquid and what background rendering does yet again.

"As someone said "
Who in earth is "someone"? What is the relevance of this to the topic anyway?

"I'm offended by Avid even listing it as "Avid Liquid" as it's a con job,"
Since when did that have any relevance? Avid own the product, what else are they going to do but list it under the Avid name.

Steve Mullen · November 27th, 2005, 06:34 AM

You are correct about RTFX! My last review of Liquid Pro 5/6 had an extensive explanation of HOW they are using the GPU to get the RT FX. Completely forgot about my last review!

I discarded my own knowedge of the RT features because:

1) after working with lots of Pinnacle products I'm biased against them because they have been always been unrealiable and when the maintance costs got too high they simply stopped supporting the product. I also knew they were in financial trouble -- which they were.

2) The entirely symbolic user interface was a great idea!!! But, in practice, trying to learn what each symbol might possibly mean was too time consuming for me. Especially since the symbols were developed in Germany. Moreover, concepts -- like Racks -- were totally USA non-standard. Perhaps it was my experience with a Casablanca where the German designers insisted a chroma-key should be called a "blue box" when Americans my age know a blue box is a device to get free phone calls. :)

For someone who has learned the system it is likely a good solution -- not a bad one as I claimed.

But looking at it -- and knowing the several companies that have written its code and then gone out of business because they couldn't sell it to customers -- for someone looking to buy a new NLE I'm not sure it does much more than other less obtuse and less risky NLEs do. Avid is quite clear about how much it lacks compared to Xpress Pro HD.

Moreover, given Avid's inability to get full, working HDV support into Xpress Pro HD -- you really have to wonder how much money they will invest in Liquid. You think they will. I can't see how they can afford to even if they wanted to. They can't even Xpress Pro HD on the Mac till the middle of 2006.

Nevertheless, I apologize for dismissing Liquid out of hand.

Stephen L. Noe · November 27th, 2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose L. Martínez Díaz

What are the options available for editing HDV 24 / 25P in the Windows world?. When I was considering which camera to buy, both Avid and Adobe were to support ProHD. Premiere 2.0 is still missing, and Xpress Pro HD in its 5.2 version does not support PAL or 24p HDV, so, is there any way available, or in short term, to edit ProHD 24/25P in PC, apart from Cineform?.

Would it be too destructive to use DVHSCap to get the transport stream and import it in an Avid DVCPRO 23,976 project?.

Thanks for your answers.

Jose

Hi Jose,

If you want to keep HDV native then your options are Liquid or FCP. Speaking for Liquid you can use 25p without issue. The 24p would require some external "manipulation" in order to edit it because there is no HDV native support for ProHD's 24p in any product right now. The FCP guys are creating work arounds just like we Liquid users are (for 24p).

For Liquid 6.1 and 24p you'll need:
Capture-CapDVHS (or equivalent)
Converting m2t to MPEG2-HDTVtoMPEG2
Import MPEG2 into Liquid 6.1 and edit
Export 24p to MOV

The problems you'll have (like everyone else) is time code and audio sync.

For 25p it's business as usual with Liquid 6.1 and you should have no problems. There is a capture profile for 720p25 and a 720p25 timeline preset. I'm a firm believer in keeping the footage 'native' to the captured codec all the way through the edit process. This is why I think Liquid is ideal for HDV.

good luck amigo...

Kevin Shaw · November 27th, 2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouayed Zabtia

Where u read that kevin , I spook to Canopus Paris and the result is negative , Canopus doesn’t have any plant to upgrade this year , they didn't writhe any thing on them site

One of the U.S. reps said 24p support is coming soon in a discussion on the Canopus forums. Of course saying it's coming soon doesn't mean much until it actually ships, but he seemed confident it would happen before the next major upgrade of Edius.

Tommy James · November 27th, 2005, 10:29 AM

One nice thing about the Cineform Aspect software is that you can later upgrade to Cineform Prospect Ingest and then try get full credit for the money you paid for Aspect applied to your Prospect purchase.

Once you have Cineform Prospect Ingest installed on your Dual Opteron 64 bit high end workstation complete with the HD-SDI capture card you are ready to capture, digitize, compress and record the full 60 frames from the 720p signal. Since you are capturing the full 1280 x 720 pixel raster you are now giving the Panisonic Varicam a run for the money because it can only record 960 x 720 resolutions.

Now the next question is can Avid Liquid do all that? But you may say "I do not need that kind of capability". How do you know you do not need it because in the future you might have a high end gig for some fast action sports and believe me when you decide go HD high end you want the capability to record the full 60 frames. The Cineform software showcase simply gives you the option to grow and it does not hold you back.

November 26th, 2005, 02:22 PM	#1
Jose L. Martínez Díaz New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid - Spain Posts: 8	So... How to edit it on PC? I was one of the first happy buyers of this camera in my country, and I've been using it extensively (in DV SD mode) with no complaints but... What are the options available for editing HDV 24 / 25P in the Windows world?. When I was considering which camera to buy, both Avid and Adobe were to support ProHD. Premiere 2.0 is still missing, and Xpress Pro HD in its 5.2 version does not support PAL or 24p HDV, so, is there any way available, or in short term, to edit ProHD 24/25P in PC, apart from Cineform?. Would it be too destructive to use DVHSCap to get the transport stream and import it in an Avid DVCPRO 23,976 project?. Thanks for your answers. Jose

November 27th, 2005, 06:34 AM	#12
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	You are correct about RTFX! My last review of Liquid Pro 5/6 had an extensive explanation of HOW they are using the GPU to get the RT FX. Completely forgot about my last review! I discarded my own knowedge of the RT features because: 1) after working with lots of Pinnacle products I'm biased against them because they have been always been unrealiable and when the maintance costs got too high they simply stopped supporting the product. I also knew they were in financial trouble -- which they were. 2) The entirely symbolic user interface was a great idea!!! But, in practice, trying to learn what each symbol might possibly mean was too time consuming for me. Especially since the symbols were developed in Germany. Moreover, concepts -- like Racks -- were totally USA non-standard. Perhaps it was my experience with a Casablanca where the German designers insisted a chroma-key should be called a "blue box" when Americans my age know a blue box is a device to get free phone calls. :) For someone who has learned the system it is likely a good solution -- not a bad one as I claimed. But looking at it -- and knowing the several companies that have written its code and then gone out of business because they couldn't sell it to customers -- for someone looking to buy a new NLE I'm not sure it does much more than other less obtuse and less risky NLEs do. Avid is quite clear about how much it lacks compared to Xpress Pro HD. Moreover, given Avid's inability to get full, working HDV support into Xpress Pro HD -- you really have to wonder how much money they will invest in Liquid. You think they will. I can't see how they can afford to even if they wanted to. They can't even Xpress Pro HD on the Mac till the middle of 2006. Nevertheless, I apologize for dismissing Liquid out of hand. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

November 26th, 2005, 03:42 PM	#2
Robert Niemann Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin, Federal Republic of Germany Posts: 109	Well, I only know this way: - Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 - Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5.1 Update (HDV Plug-in) - CineForm Aspect HD/Connect HD/Prospect HD

November 26th, 2005, 09:24 PM	#3
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	Avid Liquid 7 supports a full 25p or 30p workflow from the JVC camera, but for 24p you need to capture with a third party tool and import native 24p files. Liquid supports 24p timelines no problem, it just doesn't support the capture process at the moment and isn't into pulldowns.... The workflow I have heard of is using DVHSCap to capture 24p, another tool to do the pulldown (can't remember what that is called), then import the native 24p assets. If this can be batched then it really isn't all that much extra time to be able to work in 24p with Liquid.

November 26th, 2005, 11:18 PM	#5
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	Because there is not only one solution that works and Aspect isn't the be it and end all of solutions but mearly an interim step for those NLEs than can't handle native HDV.

November 27th, 2005, 01:15 AM	#7
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	So what? No solution is perfect. Cineform needs a hell of a lot of rendering going in and out that native editing and the workflow for 24p above I detailed doesn't. Each solution has its pros and cons, only a fool would discount one solution over another becuase of something petty.

November 27th, 2005, 02:06 AM	#9
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Canopus has indicated that they will support the 24p mode from the HD100U camera soon in Edius. No firm date yet.

November 27th, 2005, 03:53 AM	#10
Mouayed Zabtia Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 52	Where u read that kevin , I spook to Canopus Paris and the result is negative , Canopus doesn’t have any plant to upgrade this year , they didn't writhe any thing on them site , I wish if avid adobe or canopus writhe some thing in site , there's no point why this company doesn't do that or release any sheet yet

November 27th, 2005, 05:02 AM	#11
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	The rendering is dependant on system capabilities and I don't think any system you can buy today can output back to tape in RT, you have to render the whole timeline which is very time consuming on even high end systems. "Then you have RT FX, something I doubt you get with Liquid which uses Background rendering" I'm not going to bother explaining the RTFX capabilities of Liquid and what background rendering does yet again. "As someone said " Who in earth is "someone"? What is the relevance of this to the topic anyway? "I'm offended by Avid even listing it as "Avid Liquid" as it's a con job," Since when did that have any relevance? Avid own the product, what else are they going to do but list it under the Avid name.

November 27th, 2005, 10:29 AM	#15
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	One nice thing about the Cineform Aspect software is that you can later upgrade to Cineform Prospect Ingest and then try get full credit for the money you paid for Aspect applied to your Prospect purchase. Once you have Cineform Prospect Ingest installed on your Dual Opteron 64 bit high end workstation complete with the HD-SDI capture card you are ready to capture, digitize, compress and record the full 60 frames from the 720p signal. Since you are capturing the full 1280 x 720 pixel raster you are now giving the Panisonic Varicam a run for the money because it can only record 960 x 720 resolutions. Now the next question is can Avid Liquid do all that? But you may say "I do not need that kind of capability". How do you know you do not need it because in the future you might have a high end gig for some fast action sports and believe me when you decide go HD high end you want the capability to record the full 60 frames. The Cineform software showcase simply gives you the option to grow and it does not hold you back.