Deck control and time code issues

[Sean McHenry]

Ken from JVC, please post anything new you find out about issues on TC and 422 control for the BR-HD50 deck. We have 2 of these now as well as 2 of the HD100 cameras and may be going for more. I am one of 3 Engineers for the largest post house in central Ohio and we would love to say we are thrilled with the system but alas, the workflow is so far leaving something to be desired, as you can probably tell from the sheer variety of issues in this one thread alone.

The world is waiting for joint Avid/JVC support of 24p by the way. hint-hint, nudge-nudge, say no more.

For everyone else who is having issues or has offered help or suggestions, I have only this to add to my previous statements.

I have, for an unknown reason, by using a different 1394 card, seen the deck operate sending the finished timeline to tape automatically, as it should. Our older Dell, Avid certified workstations came to us with the requsite two 1394 cards. We are also using a 1394 external drive. Maxtor one touches I think they are. If we add the deck to one card, no ding-ding from the XP Pro, SP2 OS. If we add it to the card with the drive on it, I believe the card that was OEM from Dell (just a guess at this point), the machine recognizes the deck, although it never actually shows up in the device manager.

Starting Avid, we see it shake hands with the deck as it comes to life for a second, like a well connected deck should when it's getting "probed". From there we were able to lay back to the HDV device from the timeline. Avid created the m2t file without complaint and then proceded to lay off to tape automatically. Subsequent layoffs using the same m2t file seemed to also behave well.

All that was a few days ago and as luck would have it, the IT department got us a new certified HP machine and the 5.2.1 upgrade hit the streets from Avid. Avid claims we should be able to get scene detection from HDV. How I am not sure yet as we know it doesn't handle TC breaks very comfortably in HDV. The note that it is sort of working above still doesn't explain why we would not have 422 control from any other devices. We haven't gotten it to do any deck controlled captures at this moment but further testing in light of the above 1394 card issue above, is soon to follow.

My last note on this issue for now is to point out that Avid still insists, according to their supported hardware list, that the HD100 camera cannot use capture from TC (no setting in, out points to capture) or batch capture at all from the camera. That could be read potentially as Avid stating that 1394 deck control is not to their liking. The BR-HD50 deck still hasn't made the list of acceptable hardware at all. I am starting to wonder why.

More as it develops.

Sean McHenry

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Sean McHenry

Avid claims we should be able to get scene detection from HDV. How I am not sure yet as we know it doesn't handle TC breaks very comfortably in HDV

That could be read potentially as Avid stating that 1394 deck control is not to their liking.

Scene Detection does NOT need to use TC which is why the whole issue of TC has not been a big deal to those of that have used SD for the last 5 years with DV and HDV.

And, since Insert editing DV to camcorders is not officially supported, TC has been no big deal with DV. Likewise, since you cannot assemble edit or insert edit HDV, TC has been no big deal for the last 2 years of working with HDV.

For those that must have TC -- they may need to answer the question of the suitability of HDV for "pro" use. Despite being called ProHD, the GY-HD100 is in the prosumer class of equipment.

For example, other products claim Batch Capture, etc. -- but I have noted that it is not 100% reliable -- which is likely why Avid claims it does not support it.

For those that really need TC, their only hope is the HD50 deck. And, there have been reports it works fine.

[Sean McHenry]

The HD50 has reports going both ways. It would be just as unfair of me to say it is universally broken as it is to state universally that it is working. Especially since Avid still hasn't certified it, and the camera is not fully supported. See the Supported Hardware Read me with Xpress Pro.

Despite the incessant cry from a few, TC is necessary to get this Professionally marketed deck to be useful to anyone other than a single suite operation. This deck is sold as professional and it claims to have TC but it remains unreliable to a significant percentage of us.

Scene detection generally works with dramatic changes in video and, TC. There is an option in Avid to stop capture at TC breaks or not. This would be a dead function without TC. I can think of many reasons to have capture halt at a TC break.

There seems to be that creeping feeling amongst younger editors and producers that a lot of great, and professional functions are no longer needed or viable. This descussion and that opinion would never fly on the Avid forums.

Amateur and single edit suite shops can survive without TC and accurate deck control and lots of other features. My personal opinion is that folks in those situations have money issues and so can't afford to do it right. Perhaps it is up to us to demand the manufacturers stick to the various broadcast standards, and to not water down the meaning of the term "professional".

[Charles Roberts]

Our problems with the BR50 have nothing to do with accuracy. The serial control and TC and capture has been dead on every capture on both our decks (we are using FCP and RS 422 and decklink capture card). Picture is great, captures are accurate. That's professional control. I'm not sure where the discussion veered off into that 'pro/consumer' part of the jungle. that's never proven to be a very profitable topic.

We are offlining and onlining using the oldest digital workflow in the world and no problems. Don't count me in the crew that can live without TC! If I can't offfline consolidate or media manage a full drive to make space I'm sunk! Try cutting a 6:1 shooting ratio for a 30 minute script and you'll reconsider keeping full tapes online pretty fast (unless you're filthy rich, which I ain't).

I repeat the only problem we have experienced is a (hopefully) erroneous error that resets the deck in mid-capture. That's it! This ONLY happens intermittently and after SEVERAL captures in a batch capture. One, two or three clip batch captures or capture now are flawless.

I tend to doubt this is a bad wiring and protocol on the RS 422; those things would tend to not work at all, or be totally random and wacky, I would think. Not accurate and then deck completely resetting! I'll repeat. Absolutely accurate TC here through the serial RS 422. Totally professional and efficient. Except for the wonky reset thing.

And I trust JVC to get to the bottom of it, ASAP. Meanwhile we are just doing batches with fewer clips. My apologies if I've misunderstood the jist of the thread otherwise; there are way too many words in this one.

[Sean McHenry]

Charles, that's great news for you guys. I wish it was working for us as well. We too would use the standard workflow if our hardware would cooperate. I will be testing our new Avid machine later next week. Had shoulder surgery today so I will be out for a few days.

As soon as I can book HDV testing time, I'll jump in there and play some more. I am glad it's working for some. We will probably find our pathway soon. We may simply have a defective deck.

I naturally am right with you on the TC as a needed item. We might have better luck, in fact I know the BR50 works with Vegas, but it's back to Avid/JVC to figure it out.

Thanks,

Sean

[John Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Charles Roberts

I tend to doubt this is a bad wiring and protocol on the RS 422; those things would tend to not work at all, or be totally random and wacky, I would think. Not accurate and then deck completely resetting! I'll repeat. Absolutely accurate TC here through the serial RS 422. Totally professional and efficient. Except for the wonky reset thing.

And I trust JVC to get to the bottom of it, ASAP. Meanwhile we are just doing batches with fewer clips. My apologies if I've misunderstood the jist of the thread otherwise; there are way too many words in this one.

Charles how do you explain all the Sony decks that do work with the Avid? I'm trying to give people an understanding of why 422 might be working with FCP and not with AVID. The reason I touched on before is purely voltage levels. One user reported it worked on his Avid Mac but not on the PC - that says to me that 422 converter (stealth) on the Mac or the Mac port itself might be less sensitive to incorrect voltage levels (or better able to correct them) than the combination of 422 converters and serial ports on the PC. I thought it was worth looking into (it's a significant hardware difference) which is why I recommended Bruce from Addenda because he makes the Rosetta Stone and a bunch of other converters.

And if you think JVC have a handle on the 422 protocol remember 1000's of PAL HD101E's were sent out with a dropframe flag being inserted into the 50i stream. It was an Avid that picked up this error, not FCP (that's not an FCP bash BTW -great program, really has brought the price of the Avid down :-).

Sony decks work with Avid, (and they should they wrote the protocol), JVC BR-HD50 seems to work poorly or intermittently. I realise that's not impacting on you but it sure is giving Avid users a major headache. I think the onus is on JVC here to analyse and fix the problem pronto. Oh Avid should have a crack at it as well.

[Panos Bournias]

The JVC Avid cooperation for me is still a big problem.
I still get the drop outs on tape. And is not only this.
For a 45 min project the m2t is interupted when it starts decoding the sound, the avid stops operating and i am obliged to cut the project in small portions, maximum 10 min in order to get it out into tape ( With the drop outs).
With the BR 50 I can never estimate how many frames will get lost from the beginning of each "sequence" that is automatically exported from the Avid.
I am waiting for news from JVC - Avid in Jakarta.
For the moment they confirmed that there is an error at the tape that i gave them for testing-checking.
They advised to export to tape using the camera.
I will try tomorrow.
I did the raid at my computer HDs, i used pro hd tapes, but the drop outs are always there.
I hope that the 521 Avid concidered all our reports about bugs and misfunctions of the program.
If not, the combination is unusable for professional projects and seems like everyone has his one different problems.
Anyway:

Who can give advise for the hanging at a 30 - 40 min long m2t streem.

Who can give advise for the drop outs.

I must deliver the project and all my stress is not on the artistic quality but on the export to tape issue. And the answers from JVC Avid never come...!

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Panos Bournias

Who can give advise for the hanging at a 30 - 40 min long m2t streem.

Who can give advise for the drop outs.

Panos,

Why not just capture with CapDVHS and import into Avid? It's painless.

CapDVHS application

Web Site

I haven't quite followed this from the beginning but, are you working in 30p or 24p?

[Charles Roberts]

I'm not even going to suggest my 'tend to think' is scientific at all. Was just based on 'if it works here, it should work there' and that my limited experience with PC solutions has caused me to suspect the PC before other technology. But that's anecdote and we all know not to rely on that, so I'll shut my ill-suited mouth on the subject ;0). By all means get the guy from Addenda crackin (haven't dealt with that name since I was still in love with a media 100!). Actually the Blackmagic decklink guys would be a good source too, because that's how the 422 is getting inside our box. And they make drivers for both PC and Mac. Perhaps you could give them a shout on their web forum. If it works like Premiere on a PC through Decklink, then Avid still might be relatively suspect. Or maybe the serial ports in use (decklink provides on-board SP). Whatever, what was i saying about shutting my mouth?

I can't remember in this thread if anyone stated whether there was a deck profile yet. If not, Avid's answer as to why not would speak volumes I'm sure. They tend to take a long time to support new hardware, regardless of the hardware, in my experience (bad news when it means you can't invest in a new machine till they allow it!). Then again, when they approve it, its more reliable than anything else.

I agree, both parties should be all over this thing. I was happy to see my buddy at Avid at NAB demoing Xpress Pro next to this deck (although not hooked up) because we use both apps here. They gotta get it fixed and make good on that dream. And FCP gotta come through with that native 24P (come on MacWorld!) before I am 100% there.

Best o luck though!

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Sean McHenry

Despite the incessant cry from a few, TC is necessary to get this Professionally marketed deck to be useful to anyone other than a single suite operation. This deck is sold as professional and it claims to have TC but it remains unreliable to a significant percentage of us.

The point was specifically that theose who need TC must use the VTR -- not the camcorder -- and must use RS422.

So your rant on younger editors is totally misplaced. Those that don't need TC will use 1394 support with the camcorder and it will work fine. In fact they are "doing it right" for their application.

You are using -- as I remember -- an "uncertified by Avid product" and blaming everyone for it not working. I would suggest you wait until a product has been certified.

JVC has no fault in calling it a "pro" deck since it does seem to work fine with non Avid products.

"Scene detection generally works with dramatic changes in video and, TC. There is an option in Avid to stop capture at TC breaks or not. This would be a dead function without TC. I can think of many reasons to have capture halt at a TC break."

Scene Dectection uses the TOD stamp. It captures each shot. It is really irrelevant what the TC is doing. All that's important is each scene is captured to disk. Seems to me that those using the camcorder as intended by Avid would have a production done in the time you've spent making a non-certified product try to conform to your needs. Getting a project done by using the tools as they ACTUALLY work with your NLE seems to be the very definition of "pro."

If the computer goes off and handles something else it can lead to TC problems and to export DOs.

[John Mitchell]

I'm pretty sure all the deck profiles do in Avid is adjust the finer points like edit delay, whether a deck is capable of insert editing, the amount of pre-roll needed on edit and playback, etc. I don't think they actually modify the 422 protocol in any way.

You can actually get most decks to do all the basic things correctly using the generic templates.

In fact that is what should happen if there is no specific template for a deck - the Avid should still recognise it as a generic PAL or NTSC deck.

[John Mitchell]

Steve I think your being a bit harsh although the quip about younger editors may have been a tad condescending.

I thought the whole point of this thread was to see if we could help people solve the problems with these decks - I don't think telling people that they are wasting their time is productive. If the deck was working perfectly for everyone else but Sean you might have a point, but from oher posts in this thread he's clearly amongst the majority not the minority. It's the persistence of guys like Sean that help solve problems for everyone.

Can we get back on topic now?

[Chris Hurd]

Harshness edited out, and in the future please use the "Report This Post" function to the bottom right instead of responding directly. There is no need to be harsh here, and more importantly, no need to respond to it. And I completely agree, let's get back on topic.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

You are using -- as I remember -- an "uncertified by Avid product" and blaming everyone for it not working. I would suggest you wait until a product has been certified.

And yet -- Avid *did* certify at NAB2005. So let's stick to properly addressing the question, please.

Thanks in advance,

[Yusuf Thakur]

We have been capturing via component and RS422 with the Deck for over
3 months, the footage has been shot HDV720/25p it is letter box downconverted and captured in Liquid 6 via bob on the Liquid machine and Preimere 6.5 on the Digisuite platform, yes we still have one of those. The Projects in both are SD 576i and we have had no problems of any kind. Wish we could batch capture HDV via 1394. But there is hope for the patient just got the upgrade to Liquid 7 will see if this works.

[Sean McHenry]

Yusuf,
I will add your system to the list of setups that are working with this JVC hardware.

We have all Avid certified hardware at my day job. My personal editing machines are not certified. I get exactly the same responses with both certified and non certified systems.

As far as I am concerned, unless Ken from JVC as more to add, I have nothing more to say on this issue.

One last suggestion for folks joining the thread late, read the whole thing before commenting. We find ourselves repeating information otherwise.

Chris, if this "harshness" was on my end, I apologize to the group. Getting frustrating/frustrated.

My humble thanks to all attempting to contribute here.

Sean