Deck control and time code issues

[Dave Beaty]

I have been able to capture from the BRHD50 using both firewire and RS-422 control. RS-422 seems much more responsive. I don't use Avid, so I don't know the implementation of the control protocol they have.

I was successful with both Media 100 via a stealth serial adaptor using Pipeline Digital Mediadeck and the included Diaquest protocol. Both are using Sony RS-422. One nice feature of Media 100 is the P6000's proc amp that saves settings for each clip and will capture every logged clip with a specific proc amp setup. I really miss that with the FCPro system.

I also had no problems at all using Kona's Sony RS-422 via a Aja breakout box and Final Cut.

I like being able to control the deck from the editing interface, name each clip/reel/take with data & notes and not capture all the extra material or bad takes that are not needed. Serial control on capture is really something we want.

Our experience with the deck while in remote batch capture, on the other hand, has been less than satisfactory. Two different HD50's malfunctioned while capturing via remote. They ended up in some strange error mode and had to be reset to factory default. The symptoms included switching into PAL mode (we are in NTSC) and also outputing bars on the S-Video...I'd like to hear if anyone else experiences this using batch capturing from the HD50.



Dave

[Jiri Bakala]

Steve, the issue at hand is the machine control of the deck via either RS422 or firewire. The rest of the discussion is another story.

If a program (or a part of it) is shot in HDV there might be several reasons why to capture analogue video at low rez using RS422. We may disagree about why, but that's irrelevant. My current workflow (which wasn't my design, BTW) requires that. A mixing of formats might require that... as I said there are several reasons. When I deliver my rough cuts to the broadcaster for comments they require a burned-in TC. Yes, you may say use an effect instead of the deck superimpose. Sure, it is possible but not always practical (render times, etc.). My timeline has to work for the ONLINE timeline. Ah, you missed my point about the offline-online workflow. Many editors do offline on AXP, while online is done at a higer end facility by others (colour correction, effects, etc). The bottom line is TC is needed and will be for some forseeable future and so is the ability to machine control decks.

As for the storage issue, again, if you are OFFLINING a program that has various formats (HDCAM, XDCAM, HDV, etc.) you may not have the ability to ingest all those into your system. I sure don't. How would I get in uncompressed HDCAM? That doesn't preclude me from editing the material, as long as I can deal with TC and machine controlled decks.

And yes, when I do a whole project in DVCAM/DV, I wouldn't bother offlining it, of course.

And as for my claim of doing insert edit, yes, we do, all the time. We use Sony DSR-11 and other DVCAM decks. I used DV without thinking about the details because the format is practically the same as DVCAM in many respects. My apologies for not being completely clear.

And one more last point; the deck plays back DVCAM and DV formats, as well, so there would likely be the need to have TC for those, even when digesting through FireWire (again, as a part of a project or general flexibility of being able to follow various workflows).

[Panos Bournias]

For jim Bakala: Jim you cannot preview HDV through the mojo. Seems like if you edit with the Avid 5,20 HDV footage you cannot preview to monitor, only on desktop.
For Sean Mc Henry: Sean I use 2 hard drives SATA, one for the system where i export the m2t streams and one for capture, edit and rendering. What do you think that I should do? I have to present the project on the 18th, after tomorrow, then I will have two weeks to deliver the final copies in Pro HD tape to be projected through a projector via a BRHD50 spooler.
My problem will start after the 18th, as the final product has to be drop outs free!
In general the workflow of HDV looks terrible. Gives the impression that any minute the whole thing is going to collapse. The Avid is full of fatal errors!
But the image is ...Good when previewed on the TV Logic monitor.
I am thinking of buying a canopus card and recapture several times each sequence, so i will be able to through out the drop outs. Any suggestions please... I am a film person (I'm almost 50years old), new to the digital world, now in big sh...!

[Sean McHenry]

1). For Jim (and Panos) look in the forums and the Avid Knowledge Base. You can view the HDV material via the Mojo on standard monitors. At least we can here in the states with NTSC.

I think you have to start with Mojo connected, fire up the Avid software, start a project in HD (1080i) mode (check me on that in the knowledge base lookup you are about to do) and there is a drop down box to use Mojo as an output device.

You will get 16:9 SD output from the Mojo but at least you can monitor it.

2). Panos. If you are going to continue working with HDV, you might want to look into SATA drives. Perhaps even 2 set up as a RAID array. I know the data rate for HDV is lower than DV but there is somethig about MPEG2 or m2t streams that seems to want a lot of drive backing it up. Needs faster throughput than one might think. I may be wrong on that and maybe it's RAM or pure horsepower but I can tell you my HP 3.4GHz laptop can't keep up and it has a 100GB drive (at 5400RPM - maybe the issue for me) and only 768MB of DDR 333 RAM (this could be my issue too)

You might try making sure you have only media on the media drive(s). relocate any programs or stored files to your main HD or move them somewhere else. Next I would format the media drive(s) and make sure they are NTFS file format, not a FAT32 system.

That's all I can offer. I hoe it helps.

3). Steve. First, OMG. Second, what if you are asked to recut that 45 minute doc you cut last year? You gong to rebuild the entire project from scratch? Recapture the master and try to fix it that way? What if you loose a drive and the media. Gosh, sure would be nice to be able to batch capture from the EDL wouldn't it? Not gonna happen without time code.

And third, it's suppsed to work from the software we spent a lot of money on. We shouldn't have to get yet another application to capture footage when we have a capture tool in the software we have, with - deck control.

Sean

[Steve Mullen]

"Steve, the issue at hand is the machine control of the deck via either RS422 or firewire. If a program (or a part of it) is shot in HDV there might be several reasons why to capture analogue video at low rez using RS422."

You keep moving the topic to what you might want to do or need to do. As you say "My current workflow..."

They guy SEEMS to want to capture HDV via FireWire!

He wants to know why he doesn't SEEM to have FireWire deck control. I am suggesting that he does not need manual VTR control. For example, when FCP captures using AIC there is no MANUAL VTR control. Yet, once the capture by software is started -- the VTR is being controlled via FireWire.

He may also feel he needs control for HDV Export. There is no need for VTR manual control during HDV export. You position the tape ABOUT where you want the data file to be written. Request export and, at the right time, the deck begins recording. And, stops at the end. Clearly, thesoftware has 1394 control.

You seem unable to grasp that the very nature of MPEG-2 makes it impossible to do either an Assemble or Insert edit. If you try recording where there is MPEG-2 you will get a huge glitch. Since you can't do either operation -- there is no point in trying to manually control and set TC points.

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Lastly, look at your DSR-11 manual -- and all manuals on DV products -- and you will see Sony clearly points out that if you INSERT a segment of DV/DVCAM "within" a longer segment of DV/DVCAM -- you MAY get a glitch at the out-point. That is why they sell the DSR-45 etc. which are a class called EDITING VTRs whereas a DSR-11 is a FEEDER VTR. I suspect you are not doing INSERT edits but ASSEMBLE edits -- which can, of course, be done.

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And one more last point; the deck plays back DVCAM and DV formats, as well, so there would likely be the need to have TC for those, even when digesting through FireWire.

The problem is this guy didn't say he was trying to work in DV!

He may not realize he has to switch the the camcorder/deck. So where do you suddenly come up with the asertion that the camcorder/VTR don't have 1394 and TC when working with DV?

In fact, he wondered if anyone had 1394 VTR control -- which makes me think he may not know how to use either the equipment nor Avid HD. So this whole thread may have no basis in the person's problem and has gone off on topics that are not relevant to his problem. That is simply not being helpful.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Panos Bournias

I have the BR HD 50 and seems to work fine with the Avid 5,20 for capture. The project that i work with is 720p 30 frames. When exporting to HDV devise from the Avid connects also fine with the system but the final export to tape has many drops and is not possible to use it for a finished project.
I use it, for now, to double check the color correction problems, as no preview to monitor is allowed from the Avid.
Does anyone has a suggestion on this? I tried all the possibilities with tapes. During the exporting time the preview looks fine and when i play back the tape, in footage of 3min dur. i get in average 3-4 major drop outs, really really bad....

So here we have confirmation that Avid does work with HDV on Capture and Export. So that answers Sean's question. He's doing something wrong.

Now we have a new problem. Panos, I suspect your machine does not meet Avid's HDV specs in every way.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Panos Bournias

In general the workflow of HDV looks terrible. Gives the impression that any minute the whole thing is going to collapse. The Avid is full of fatal errors!

Since one can edit 1080i on an iBook with iMovie HD -- I'm just having a hard time believing Avid has released a product that can't edit 720p30 without the problems you describe.

Something is wrong with your system and I would look there before I looked for another NLE. And, the need for a second drive is VERY UNLIKELY to be an Avid requirement. That concept hasn't been valid for a decade.

You've been given several good suggestions on what else might be wrong.

[Sean McHenry]

Good heavens we make a lot of noise here. OK, let me re-state the issue so everyone is clear on all this. Since I started this, I will be the one to say what I mean to say and ask. Here goes.

It is advertised by Avid that they are supporting the HD100 camera. I would assume that when someone says they support a device, that means they are claiming that all aspects of that device are in complete agreement with their device(s). Otherwise, they really aren't supporting it. They have partial support and should state this up front in big BOLD lettering. As this was not the case, a lot of us bought into the idea that Avid was working with this camera.

As for the BR-HD50 deck. There is a preset for deck control in the Avid Xpress ProHD software. As the deck control preset would have absolutly no purpose other than to control the deck via either 1394 or RS/422, it's a quite logical assumption that it would actually do what it is supposed to do, the very reason it is included. It does not work for everyone I have personally contacted through various forums.

Hence my question, does anyone have control of this deck that is using any Avid products. I didn't differentiate DV from HDV intentionally as I want to find out if folks can control any aspect of this deck in any format. In fact, the format on the tape should have no bearing on whether deck control functions or not really. Are you not able to start, stop, pause, play, ff or rew based on the tape in the deck, from the front panel controls? That would be a silly thing to assert or assume.

In my book, the control functions are simply an extension of the front panel controls with the addition of TC traveling on that signal.

Yes, most of us want/need TC and will for a long long time. I am aware that there is no true assemble or insert with MPEG as it is GOP based. I am aware of I,P and B frames and that the file format of the stream is m2t. I get all that and it really has nothing to do with the question I asked so, I suppose I will ask once again and perhaps we won't muddy the water with why I want TC, let's just say I do and leave it at that.

Q: Is anyone able to control the JVC HD100 camera via 1394 or the BR-HD50 deck via either 1394 or RS/422 from an Avid system?

Seems like a simple question really.

Sean Mchenry

[Tim Dashwood]

The main problem is probably the 24 frame based TC. Most deck presets will be setup for 30 fps TC DF or NDF, so anything other than that and they won't understand it.

I would try modifying an existing preset in deck preferences for 24 based timecode.

[Sean McHenry]

Now there is a useful idea. Thanks Tim. I'll look into that. I have never checked into deck control presets. If they are just txt or ASCII files I suppose I could modify it.

TC is still a side issue but the folks here are going to want it. I suppose there are really still a lot of reasons for TC in any format. Makes pre-production lot's easier if we know where things are, redigitizing is a whole lot easier and batch capture, etc. Besides, whether everyone likes it or not, that's the professional way to do it.

Thanks Tim,

Sean

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Sean McHenry

Now there is a useful idea. Thanks Tim. I'll look into that. I have never checked into deck control presets. If they are just txt or ASCII files I suppose I could modify it.

You should be able to open deck preferences and modify any setting. You have to do this if switching from a NTSC to PAL deck anyway. You should be able use a generic machine template and then select a frame rate.
Of course, in my 10+ years of experience cutting on Avids, I've never used one of their Xpress DV products - only Media COmposer or Symphony, so the preferences may not work the same way.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Another option if the 60fps is not available is to use 'free run' as you TC instead of transferring what's on the tape or you could use TOD instead. I realize this doesn't help if you've done a manual EDL but if you haven't manually written your shot lists' TC then TOD or Free run are options for you.

good luck amigo....

[Sean McHenry]

Once again, I am not the only person having this issue with a clean new Avid install and a qualified set of hardware. I am willing to give that we may indeed have something up with our system but here's one more thing, neither Avid nor JVC have offered any assistance with the issue for those of us with problems yet. Sort of makes me wonder why only one or two people would not have this issue. The majority of us are having this issue.

I would further ask Panos to contact me off the list so we can compare notes to be sure we are both trying the same things. He never actually mentions trying to control the deck via 422 or firewire directly. If he is simply hitting "play" on the front panel and putting the Avid into capture mode, that's not at all what I am trying to do.

Direct question for Panos - have you actually been able to put the deck into play, rew, ff, pause, stop from the Avid deck control panel? We can get one or two mouse clicks which can put the deck into play but then it will fail with an error. I just want to make sure we are both speaking about the same thing here.

Last, Tim, I was unable to select any standard deck presets, including the generic version and get any results. I was thinking of playing around with the presets files to see if there was something in the underlying file itself that looked a bit odd. May still do that later.

Giving the blanket statement that my system is patently broken doesn't quite get it.

Sean

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Sean McHenry

In fact, the format on the tape should have no bearing on whether deck control functions or not really.

iT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

There are two device protocols. That's why you must switch your deck/camcorder to the correct media AND choose the correct Device Control Preset.

[Stephen L. Noe]

I concur with what Steve said. I work on a Liquid system. In Liquid you MUST select the standard by which the sytem is setup (HDV1 or HDV2). HDV2 is the default and the JVC will not work with HDV2 as the default. Pinnacle has written a white paper about how to make the switch. I've heard that you must make the format change in Vegas as well.

Maybe Xpress is the same?

Click for PDF The last pages show requirements for JVC HDV connections to Windows XP. It may help amigo..