GY-HD101: Any Powerbook editors out there?

[Alexei Berteig]

I have to bring my computer equipment up-to-spec so that i can edit HD off of the GY-HD101.

Anyone out there using Lumiere and FCP5 on a Powerbook?

I'm either going to buy one of the new 17" PBs or a G5 dual - I'd rather get the powerbook since I'm constantly moving around, but I also don't want to be tearing my hair out because it proved to be underpowered for editing HD. I've posted elsewhere but I've never gotten anyone to say clearly "YES I've done it and it's fine" or "NO, do yourself a favor and get the G5 dual."

[Jemore Santos]

Hey Alexi
Well im buying the Hd100 tomorrow and will get Lumiere ASAP because its compatible with fcp 4.5 but i will upgrade to 5 this week
so ill get back to you on that. Btw i have the last model before the new powerbook and i do have a 17" PB and i cant wait to test out how FCP natively edits HDV even with the GoP being a major headache.

[Alexei Berteig]

Great - I'm veeery curious how you fare on the powerbook. Please, please post your impressions. BTW, I'm kind of new to the whole on-line forum thing...what does "GoP" mean?

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Alexei Berteig

... Anyone out there using Lumiere and FCP5 on a Powerbook?

Spent the weekend testing the HD100 and FCP5 with the latest beta of LumiereHD on my 15 month old PowerBook 17" 1.33 GHz, using AIC as the Timeline codec (as I hit a brick wall with DVCPRO-HD at 25fps).

With AIC, of course the PowerBook is absolutely fine. I connected the HD100 to the FW400 port and a LaCie 300Gb triple interface to the FW800 (of no consequence as both are on the same bus), captured direct to the LaCie.

No problems with the editing!

But the ingest is still a bit tortuous. If you're used to the Z1/HDV experience with FCP5, you'll need to do a little expectation re-adjustment. To be fair, 1.6b2 is a product at Beta stage, but we're mighty glad to see it.

[Jemore Santos]

Matt is that a public beta? Im not sure if anyone asked frederich,
but if it is i would love to test it out tomorrow

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Jemore Santos

Matt is that a public beta? Im not sure if anyone asked frederich,
but if it is i would love to test it out tomorrow

It can be downloaded for free, but you already need to have LumiereHD to use it.

I just ordered the new Powerbook 15" on Friday, so I'll let you know how it works when it arrives.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

Spent the weekend testing the HD100 and FCP5 with the latest beta of LumiereHD on my 15 month old PowerBook 17" 1.33 GHz, using AIC as the Timeline codec (as I hit a brick wall with DVCPRO-HD at 25fps).

1) I assume you captured as HDV -- not AIC. Right?

2) Why use AIC as the Sequence setting. Just use HDV -- the same as you captured? Of course, the Sequence codec makes no difference until you export. But, you would certainly want to stay as HDV for recording back to the camera. Then EXPORT to any other codec.

3) What do you need Lumiere for as FCP 5 captures 720p30 with no issues at all? Unless, you are shooting 24p, of course. Which raises the question -- does Lumiere force you to work with AIC? That's not good news as it's not a very good codec.

I can 9 RT streams (sumperiposed) on a dual 2.5ghz g5 + static title. How many streams can you get?

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

1) I assume you captured as HDV -- not AIC. Right?

Matt was referring to his workflow with 720P24 in LumiereHD. LumiereHD captures m2t streams, but then allows you to demux it into a program stream and create an all I-frame file in a quicktime wrapper.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

2) Why use AIC as the Sequence setting. Just use HDV -- the same as you captured? Of course, the Sequence codec makes no difference until you export. But, you would certainly want to stay as HDV for recording back to the camera. Then EXPORT to any other codec.

Actually the sequence codec makes a difference everytime you render something. It would be great to stay in HDV to record back to camera, assuming all straight cuts and no effects renders. I prefer to go with "uncompressed" codecs, or at least high-bit-rate when possible and not worry about going back to an HDV camera.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

3) What do you need Lumiere for as FCP 5 captures 720p30 with no issues at all? Unless, you are shooting 24p, of course. Which raises the question -- does Lumiere force you to work with AIC? That's not good news as it's not a very good codec.

You can work with any codec in Lumiere (even Uncompressed 10-bit,) but AIC is a logical choice as it is designed as a lossless all-I-frame 4:2:0 transcoding codec for HDV. It is essentially HDV without the Gop structure. I have found it to actually be quite high quality. Here's some info:
http://www.hdforindies.com/2005/01/h...-new-imovie-05

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/hdvxdv_wright.html

http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/hdvroadsh...le_13272.shtml

I am working up some comparisons of different codecs to try to determine the best workflow to stick to. I will post my results in a couple of days.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

Actually the sequence codec makes a difference everytime you render something.

This is a way too common miss-understanding of FCP. When you are editing, every frame -- as you move through the timeline -- is always decompressed/decoded from the source file. The FX are performed using uncompressed 4:4:4 YUV digital video. The result it is sent to your RGB monitors.

If you do force render something -- which one almost never needs to do -- and you change ANYTHING -- the Preview file is NOT used and everything starts again from the source files.

Unless you force a render, FCP never renders anything until you do an export to tape or to a file. When FCP does this, it never uses any Preview files and starts again with your HDV source files. Thus, there is never more than one Decode of ANY frame and no more than Encode of ANY decoded or non-decoded (graphics, etc.) frame.

So, the only advantages of AIC is that it MAY be faster to decode in RT while editing and any FORCED render segments will be I-frame only. However, while I agree with you that I don't see any degradation with AIC, folks I trust have written detailed findings about what it does wrong with AIC chroma details.

Since FCP supports true native HDV -- I can't see any reason to take a chance by using anything but HDV or uncompressed. Moreover, HDV is ready to go back to the camera, while AIC must be decoded and recoded -- not a good idea.

AND, of course, during import -- the HDV MPEG-2 is decoded and the re-coded to MPEG-2 AIC. So, by the time you go back to your camera or to a DVD -- your HDV has gone through 2 complete cycles of decode/recode.

"You can work with any codec in Lumiere (even Uncompressed 10-bit,)"

Can you stay in native HDV? If not, then the solution is not a "native" one and I wouldn't use it. I'll wait for Apple.

Moreover, AIC is not "lossless" in the sense CineForm is "lossless" so I'm not against using an intermedaite codec. But, it has to be both much better and far faster than native HDV. Right now, nothing can do what AspectHD plus Premiere Pro can do together.

And it rocks on a laptop. See my mini-review at:
http://www.gyhduser.com/

But, I'm considering a 12" PowerBook so I'm still curious about FCP RT performance -- although at 720p30.

[Matt Davis]

1) As Tim's mentioned, I'm capturing the m2t streams - either LumiereHD or DVHSCap can do this, and it can do it with a Z1 too...

2) In addition to Tim's info, I'll point out for the record that I edit almost exclusively on a PowerBook 1.33 GHz, and I get far better editing performance out of AIC (and DVCPRO-HD if I can use it) than HDV - especially when exporting an edit. No conforming! ;-)

BTW: The only 'tape' I'll print to is Beta (digi or SP), and even then it's a rarety. My clients (HD & SD) usually want WM9, Muxed MPEG2 or DVD.

3) Mate, I'm from the land of PAL - where 25 "Pictures Always Lovely" frames are made up of exactly two fields that are lock-step every bit of the way - none of that 1000/1001 nonsense. It's really easy, really nice, and completely missed by FCP - no 720p PAL HD setups at the moment, so we have to brew our own.

Only LumiereHD seems to add a little bit of fairy dust to the transcode to make them work on a 25p timeline. But when they do, they're great.

As far as your 9 streams are concerned, I tend to use AfterEffects for that kind of work. Most of my editing is straight cuts, a few dissolves and a scattering of title overlays from LiveType. All completely doable whereever I like on my little old PowerBook. ;-D

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

In addition to Tim's info, I'll point out for the record that I edit almost exclusively on a PowerBook 1.33 GHz, and I get far better editing performance out of AIC (and DVCPRO-HD if I can use it) than HDV - especially when exporting an edit. No conforming! ;-)

You should get better performance from AIC, but at the expense of quality. Frankly, for most cuts-only work one could use FCE HD, but one would have to use AIC. In fact one could edit with iMovie, but again only with AIC.

Likewise, DVCPRO HD forces a loss in horizontal rez so it doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of quality, either.

Therefore, for me, the real advantage of FCP 5 is native HDV editing in RT!

Which raises the question -- you say AIC is "better in performance" than HDV. For cuts only editing, that seems to imply the PowerBook is very slow. So some simple questions. Using native HDV:

Can you add a static title in RT?
Can you CC a clip in RT?
Can you do a Dissolve in RT?
Can you do a Dissolve between two CC clips in RT?

Obviously, the mode should be set to UNLIMITED with NO constraints on Quality or Frame Rate.

If one can't do these tasks with HDV on a PB, then it seems it is too slow for native HDV.

Lastly, you say "especially when exporting an edit. No conforming!"

When you say "no conforming" what do you mean?

Whether you use AIC or HDV as a source, during export every MPEG-2 frame must be decoded and recoded/recompressed to something else. I find it hard to believe there is a significant decode time difference between AIC and HDV -- so there should be very little difference in Export times.

In terms of Exporting to HDV -- I suspect an HDV export would be MUCH FASTER than an an AIC export. So, here HDV gains both speed and quality.

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

If one can't do these tasks with HDV on a PB, then it seems it is too slow for native HDV.

"Can you add a static title in RT?"
- Yes.

"Can you CC a clip in RT?"
- Yes.

"Can you do a Dissolve in RT?"
- Yes

"Can you do a Dissolve between two CC clips in RT?"
- I get an Orange bar rather than a Green bar, which means it has to drop quality by a gear or two. But it's RT.

"Et tout le monde est un lapin heureux"

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

When you say "no conforming" what do you mean?

<disgruntled sigh>

I am not going to get into this AIC thing in depth because it's a workaround. This is a JVC thread. When working with a Z1 in HDV, it's fine. It's not quite DV, but I can deal with it. BUT, about the Z1 HDV and this conforming process that's the last stage of an HDV edit:

My gripe is that by working 'entirely in the HDV domain' this means that exporting your finished movie involves a process called conforming, where the software carefully respools out your footage, rebuilding the 12 frame Gop structure, rendering out new MPEG-2 versions of filtered footage as it goes, and then only when necessary, generally doing the right thing by all, and taking its own sweet time in the process (10:1 on a good day). That's the price you pay for staying in HDV.

Conform to 12GoP, then Render, then export. It Love Me Long Time.

Right, so I can't pull 720p25 into FCP like Z1 HDV. AIC works and those little microsecond pauses and 'thinks bubbles' that occur whilst I cut HDV disappear. When I output, the movie pours out like treacle over biscuits (not like the dried up HDV ketchup). Handy to know in advance if your edit will be needed in a hurry. Can't see HDV work in a live environment! :)

And lo! The use of DVCPRO-HD 720 /may/ be softer. It matters not a fig to me, as I can't use it because I don't have a 25p version that works. I've tried it with 1080i50, and it was absolutely fine, just took a long time to convert the footage.

I don't share your enthusiasm for HDV as an editing codec - it's only just acceptable as an acquisition format. MPEG is a delivery format, and almost everything about the way it works makes it singularly unsuitable as an editing format. It's like mastering a CD from an MP3 file!

And don't even get me started on how bad HDV tape is as an output format.

What I really want is the DNxHD codec from Avid to work in FCP. But that's a different story, as I hoped we were talking about editing HD100 footage...

As for PowerBooks being unsuitable for editing, in my opinion, they are suitable. In your opinion, they're not. That's fine too, it's only an opinion after all.

Ah. My conform has finished, and FCP has just decided to render the timeline now I've spent so much time here. I bid you good night.

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Likewise, DVCPRO HD forces a loss in horizontal rez so it doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of quality, either.

I've transcoded HD100 24p to 1280x720 DVCPROHD (720p variety). Was also able to modify a sequence preset to edit said clips without aspect ratio issues.

Now whether or not Blackmagic or AJA would output that DVCPRO HD res correctly might be another deal.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

"Can you add a static title in RT?"
- Yes.
"Can you CC a clip in RT?"
- Yes.
"Can you do a Dissolve in RT?"
- Yes
"Can you do a Dissolve between two CC clips in RT?"
- I get an Orange bar rather than a Green bar, which means it has to drop quality by a gear or two. But it's RT.

My gripe is that by working 'entirely in the HDV domain' this means that exporting your finished movie involves a process called conforming, where the software carefully respools out your footage, rebuilding the 12 frame Gop structure, rendering out new MPEG-2 versions of filtered footage as it goes, and then only when necessary, generally doing the right thing by all, and taking its own sweet time in the process (10:1 on a good day). That's the price you pay for staying in HDV.

SORRY -- THAT'S SIMPLY NOT HOW FCP WORKS.

During Export, every HDV frame -- in all streams is decoded to uncompressed 4:4:4. Graphics are already 4:4:4. Any FX are now performed. Every frame remains uncompressed 4:4:4. What happens next is dependent ONLY on what format you want to EXPORT to. DV and DVCPRO are compresed. DVD is encoded as 4:2:0 MPEG-2.

It makes absolutly no difference -- during export -- whether your source is HDV or AIC. Both must be decoded. The difference is, however, quality. AIC is HDV that has been decoded and recoded. You do not want to do this. JVC is quite specific that HDV should be edited natively.

Moreover, your coment about "HDV for aquistion but not editing" shows you really do not understand how FCP works. You DO NOT EDIT IN HDV simply because you set a Sequence to HDV. The need to Set a Codec ONLY defines the codec to be used if you FORCE RENDER which is something you don't need to do because FCP is RT. And, as I've explained, when you export, all your renders are discarded.

Moreover, I've had no problems in recording HDV back to HDV camcorders and DVHS for the past 3 years. If you have a problem -- it is your problem, not one with HDV.

Your talk of encoding every frame when working with HDV is also false. When you work with HDV, the only recoding that is done is a few frames at each cut point. That's why the export of a cuts-only timeline should be very fast.

HOWEVER -- I fully agree that it is not as fast as Apple implys it should be. Clearly, FCP is doing "something" during export that is wasting time. They need to fess-up to what's going on. And, it may be possible that using AIC avoids this process. In which case you are using a work-around to fix something not yet right in FCP. Somehow, I'll bet Avid does it right. Using true native NLE, Export is as fast as DV. No wait.

"As for PowerBooks being unsuitable for editing, in my opinion, they are suitable. In your opinion, they're not. That's fine too, it's only an opinion after all."

You need to read posts more accurately. You said HDV was "very slow" on your PB. I didn't. Then when I ask you specifcally about what was RT, you answer that most of what I need is RT. If it's RT -- I don't consider it slow or unusable. It seems very useable to me.

About the timeline hesitations. I expect the new 1.5GHz PB with 5400rpm drive will help make editing more responsive. I don't expect an under 5# computer to equal a dual G5. Especially when I've edited HDV on a 700MHz G3 iBook! :)

[Matt Davis]

Steve,

Still trying to digest your post. I fear that this thread is drifting so much it should go to the general HD editing bit. I do hope lurkers are getting something out of this...

Leaving sweeping generalisations about my abilities with FCP aside :-) ,

Editing HDV is undeniably slower than editing a frame based codec because the computer is having to constantly generate keyframes where once there was none. I cannot believe that I have got that totally wrong. That 'eye blink' time is why I describe editing HDV on a powerbook as slow. It's not undoable, I just prefer editing in something a little more resonsive. In HDV, AIC, DVCPRO-HD = snappy. HDV = the occasional narcolepsy expressed by 15 seconds of beachball for no immediate reason.

So, when it's time to output my magnum opus, I guess some shots will be in a position where once was an I frame and now should be a B frame, or whatever. At some point, somebody or something somewhere must (unless I was wrong about the tooth-fairy) regenerate the MPEG2 stream so that all shots and all the transition bits that were created by FCP and now need to also be part of the MPEG2 stream, must follow the strict IBBPBXYS-whatever pattern from frame 0 to the bitter end.

Do you know, I really thought that was the Conforming stage - after all, I've never seen Conforming before, and it only appeared when I started editing HDV, and - egad, I don't get conforming if I use AIC. Or DV. Or any other frame based codec.

Also, my world is that of Hi-Def projectors, XVGA plasma screens, Laptops, desktops, LED display panels (not actually HD but I digress), DoReMi HD players and so on. If I handed my clients a MiniDV tape with HDV on it, they'd have a hissy fit. My HD is delivered as a data file. Try hooking up an HDV deck to a projection system designed to accept PC input. "Where's the VGA plug?" they scream. MPEG2, WM9, QT PhotoJPEG, now we're talking. Tape players in our industry are so 1980s... Like I said, *don't get me started*.

"SORRY -- THAT'S SIMPLY NOT HOW FCP WORKS."

My vote goes to the tooth-fairy. She makes it work. I also have a rubber chicken that used to resurrect sticky hard drives, but I now find it much more effective to take them for a car trip to calm them down - much like my toddler, who now needs a bath. Good night once again, dear readers.