Help with noise at DVinfo.net

Soroush Shahrokni · October 19th, 2005, 07:37 PM

Im getting too much noise in my footage, even when I have good amount of light. I know that it can be reduced in the camera, but does anyone know how and what settings I should change?

Any help would be appreciated!

Soroush Shahrokni · October 20th, 2005, 08:01 PM

42 views and no reply...! =(

Tim Dashwood · October 20th, 2005, 08:05 PM

Can you post a TIFF frame grab or even a short m2t? Are you seeing noise at 0dB, or higher gain values?

The HD100 doesn't have coring control like DVX100A or XL2, but I've found it to have much less noise than the DVX.

Stephen L. Noe · October 20th, 2005, 08:14 PM

yes, screenshot please. B.Green reported an unusually noisy camera over on DVXuser.com.

Warren Shultz · October 20th, 2005, 11:33 PM

Some color matrix settings can cause increased noise if you've tweaked them too much. Do you get the noise at factory default?

Soroush Shahrokni · October 21st, 2005, 10:08 AM

Thx for the replies, we did some testings today and the DP that was with me was reffering to the "noise" as minimal compared to other HDV cameras.

We also compared footage shot with the JVC by other members and watched them side by side and correctly there is no more or less "noise" in my footage compared to others.

His first comments when we projected the images where "Are you kidding me?", "you call this noisy?". I guess one gets used very fast to HD resolution!

I will upload some TIFF grabs shortly with the risk of getting the same response as my collague!

Soroush Shahrokni · October 21st, 2005, 10:16 AM

http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...M1OO8FWR7IFQBW

http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...P3SXOAFH96LRJI

http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...A3LL5TYWXHWVYE

Stephen L. Noe · October 21st, 2005, 01:30 PM

Uhhh... Well.... It looks P.D.G to me.

Tim Dashwood · October 21st, 2005, 02:00 PM

I'd say you are seeing compression artifacts. It is easy to scrutinize a frame grab, but what counts is the image when in motion.
Your images look pretty darn good, especially the sky shot. You would think that the colour sampling/compression would have created "stepping" in the sky gradation, but it holds up well in this example.

Soroush Shahrokni · October 21st, 2005, 02:30 PM

Thx for the replies. So what Im reffering to as "noise" is infact "compression artifacts"? But then how come Sony footage looks less compressed although it should be reversed? It feels that the Z1/Fx1 footage are cleaner, but maybe Im wrong!

I guess with SilverOak 10bit 4:2:2 sampling the compression artifacts will be gone or non-visable.

Stephen L. Noe · October 21st, 2005, 03:25 PM

Are you checking your images on an HDTV in native 720p or? Tim mentioned that the codec is optimized for 24p. The 30p stuff I've worked with has been terrific as well. There is absolutely no way to complain about the gradation on the sky shot. How does the footage look in motion?

Soroush Shahrokni · October 21st, 2005, 03:50 PM

Stephen, Im watching the footage on a Sanyo Z2 (720p) projector. The footage is very good, infact it looks better when in motion. I guess Im asking too much from HDV compression.

Its just that it looks like footage from JVC (not just mine) has more grain/noise compared to Z1. I cannot stand the videoish interlaced motion but the footage looks cleaner!

Oh and I always shoot 24p! =)

Stephen L. Noe · October 21st, 2005, 04:12 PM

Have you tried to connect component from the HD100 to the Z2? Take a look at what you can expect from component without HDV compression.

The 'grain' you're seeing in the footage looks just like film grain (to me). There are almost no macroblock motion estimation problems like on the Sony iteration of HDV (and I'm afraid the XL-H1 as well). In the worst case scenario's I've seen with the HD-100 and motion estimation, it has delivered.

Soroush, try a massive color correction on the footage and see how it holds up. Your editor will be very happy you're using ProHD. Have him/her pull the blacks down and see how well the image holds up! You simply can't do that with the Sony or XL-H1. The blacks crumble apart quite often on Sony and Canon HDV.

Soroush Shahrokni · October 21st, 2005, 08:36 PM

Yes Steven, I have connected the from the component out and it looks very good.

And I edit all my footage myself, it holds exremely well under CC and I can agree that the 'grain' looks a bit like some of the Kodak stock, but if I could choose Id have had it 'grain-free' and add gain in post.

I guess I´ve become spoiled. This is by far the best camera that I have owned for personal use and I will shoot alot with this one. I have just been appointed to direct a 12 episode TV drama for Swedish television. We will have a meeting to discuss the project sometimes next week and I will propose that we shoot it with the JVC. I feel very comfortable with this camera and love the combination of JVC and mini35 adapters, lets see what gets decided!

October 19th, 2005, 07:37 PM	#1
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	Help with noise Im getting too much noise in my footage, even when I have good amount of light. I know that it can be reduced in the camera, but does anyone know how and what settings I should change? Any help would be appreciated!

October 21st, 2005, 10:16 AM	#7
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	3 TIFFs (noise or compression artifacts?) http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...M1OO8FWR7IFQBW http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...P3SXOAFH96LRJI http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...A3LL5TYWXHWVYE

October 20th, 2005, 08:01 PM	#2
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	42 views and no reply...! =(

October 20th, 2005, 08:05 PM	#3
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Can you post a TIFF frame grab or even a short m2t? Are you seeing noise at 0dB, or higher gain values? The HD100 doesn't have coring control like DVX100A or XL2, but I've found it to have much less noise than the DVX.

October 20th, 2005, 08:14 PM	#4
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	yes, screenshot please. B.Green reported an unusually noisy camera over on DVXuser.com.

October 20th, 2005, 11:33 PM	#5
Warren Shultz Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 248	Some color matrix settings can cause increased noise if you've tweaked them too much. Do you get the noise at factory default?

October 21st, 2005, 10:08 AM	#6
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	Thx for the replies, we did some testings today and the DP that was with me was reffering to the "noise" as minimal compared to other HDV cameras. We also compared footage shot with the JVC by other members and watched them side by side and correctly there is no more or less "noise" in my footage compared to others. His first comments when we projected the images where "Are you kidding me?", "you call this noisy?". I guess one gets used very fast to HD resolution! I will upload some TIFF grabs shortly with the risk of getting the same response as my collague!

October 21st, 2005, 01:30 PM	#8
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Uhhh... Well.... It looks P.D.G to me.

October 21st, 2005, 02:00 PM	#9
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	I'd say you are seeing compression artifacts. It is easy to scrutinize a frame grab, but what counts is the image when in motion. Your images look pretty darn good, especially the sky shot. You would think that the colour sampling/compression would have created "stepping" in the sky gradation, but it holds up well in this example.

October 21st, 2005, 02:30 PM	#10
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	Thx for the replies. So what Im reffering to as "noise" is infact "compression artifacts"? But then how come Sony footage looks less compressed although it should be reversed? It feels that the Z1/Fx1 footage are cleaner, but maybe Im wrong! I guess with SilverOak 10bit 4:2:2 sampling the compression artifacts will be gone or non-visable.

October 21st, 2005, 03:25 PM	#11
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Are you checking your images on an HDTV in native 720p or? Tim mentioned that the codec is optimized for 24p. The 30p stuff I've worked with has been terrific as well. There is absolutely no way to complain about the gradation on the sky shot. How does the footage look in motion?

October 21st, 2005, 03:50 PM	#12
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	Stephen, Im watching the footage on a Sanyo Z2 (720p) projector. The footage is very good, infact it looks better when in motion. I guess Im asking too much from HDV compression. Its just that it looks like footage from JVC (not just mine) has more grain/noise compared to Z1. I cannot stand the videoish interlaced motion but the footage looks cleaner! Oh and I always shoot 24p! =)

October 21st, 2005, 04:12 PM	#13
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Have you tried to connect component from the HD100 to the Z2? Take a look at what you can expect from component without HDV compression. The 'grain' you're seeing in the footage looks just like film grain (to me). There are almost no macroblock motion estimation problems like on the Sony iteration of HDV (and I'm afraid the XL-H1 as well). In the worst case scenario's I've seen with the HD-100 and motion estimation, it has delivered. Soroush, try a massive color correction on the footage and see how it holds up. Your editor will be very happy you're using ProHD. Have him/her pull the blacks down and see how well the image holds up! You simply can't do that with the Sony or XL-H1. The blacks crumble apart quite often on Sony and Canon HDV.

October 21st, 2005, 08:36 PM	#14
Soroush Shahrokni Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Stockholm Posts: 100	Yes Steven, I have connected the from the component out and it looks very good. And I edit all my footage myself, it holds exremely well under CC and I can agree that the 'grain' looks a bit like some of the Kodak stock, but if I could choose Id have had it 'grain-free' and add gain in post. I guess I´ve become spoiled. This is by far the best camera that I have owned for personal use and I will shoot alot with this one. I have just been appointed to direct a 12 episode TV drama for Swedish television. We will have a meeting to discuss the project sometimes next week and I will propose that we shoot it with the JVC. I feel very comfortable with this camera and love the combination of JVC and mini35 adapters, lets see what gets decided!