Any HD100U shorts yet at DVinfo.net

Dwight Flynn · October 15th, 2005, 09:05 AM

Anyone done a short with the HD100U yet (or long form tests), and if so, is it posted or viewing? If so could you provide the link?

Tim Dashwood · October 15th, 2005, 10:52 AM

Here's an extended low-light test. There is another thread somewhere all about it.

http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/...y-sorenson.mov

Brian Duke · October 15th, 2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

Here's an extended low-light test. There is another thread somewhere all about it.

http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/...y-sorenson.mov

What did you shoot with? The Fuji lens? Any insigts as to your settings. I assume you had the gain all the way up. Did you use any adapters, such as the Mini35 or Micro 35?

And how did you get the slowmo effect?

Thanks

Duke

Tim Dashwood · October 15th, 2005, 06:10 PM

There really is another thread that answers all of those questions somewhere - I just can't find it right now.

Anyway, here are a few of the specs:

-shot between 9PM and Midnight in the rain. (no dropouts by the way.)

-Ambient light level was around 2 footcandles - 5 in the hotspots of the street lights. I used a 60W china ball for the CU handheld running shot.

-Stock lens with a Promist1 - ƒ1.4.

-0dB gain, 1/48th shutter, preset 3200K.

-MAX Standard gamma, black level NORMAL, black stretch 3, Knee at 85%, cine matrix (but the edited sequence has been colour corrected.)

-All shots were 720P24 except for the slo-mo which was 576P50, conformed in cinema tools to 23.98fps, then uprezzed to 720P (and then the edited sequence was compressed into a small file size for the internet.)

The point of this test was to see the absolute limits of the camera in the worst possible available light situation on a rainy night. I have so far learned a great deal from this particular test about how sensitive the HD100 actually can be (contrary to popular belief.) The progressive CCDs themselves may be less sensitive than their interlaced counterparts, but with proper control over camera processing (cranking the gamma and stretching the blacks) I found that it is actually VERY sensitive - even at 0db gain. I was able to show in another test that it was 1.5 stops more sensitive than the DVX100 using my "low-light" scene file, which would make it at least 3 stops more sensitive than the Z1 (based on Barry Green's shootout test http://dvxuser.com/articles/shoot3/ )
Based on what my lightmeter was reading (4-5 footcandle key) the night of the shoot, I would rate this gamma curve between 650-800ASA.

There was some intermittent SSE on three of the shots. It can be easily fixed in post by either crushing the blacks or making a slight black adjustment to one side of the other. I have also since found another way to eliminate it from the camera while shooting with this setting and a master black level of -2 or -3, but there would be a slight loss of detail in the blacks.

This footage is being made into a teaser trailer for a short film I will be shooting in a few months, so I'll post that when it is done.

Tim

Dwight Flynn · October 15th, 2005, 07:13 PM

Thanks Tim. I am looking for as much info as I can find about this camera going through its paces. Folks if there are additional links please post it. There should be a central locations where links for downloadable footage testing this (and other) cams can be found on this board.

Tom Lowe · October 18th, 2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

-All shots were 720P24 except for the slo-mo which was 576P50, conformed in cinema tools to 23.98fps, then uprezzed to 720P (and then the edited sequence was compressed into a small file size for the internet.)
[/b]

So, in order to do overcranked shots, you need to downconvert basically? I am thinking about using the HD-100 for an indie feature, but I would hate to lose resolution in order to get slo-mo shots.

Nate Weaver · October 18th, 2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Lowe

So, in order to do overcranked shots, you need to downconvert basically? I am thinking about using the HD-100 for an indie feature, but I would hate to lose resolution in order to get slo-mo shots.

If your project is 720p HDV, and you want slo-mo, you'll have to do with SD res cut in with your 720p.

If your project is SD to begin with, then you lose no res and it's win-win.

Tom Lowe · October 18th, 2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

If your project is 720p HDV, and you want slo-mo, you'll have to do with SD res cut in with your 720p.

If your project is SD to begin with, then you lose no res and it's win-win.

Yeah, but who wants SD footage in the middle of an HD feature? Any chance this problem will be solved in the coming months?

Joseph H. Moore · October 18th, 2005, 12:20 PM

It's not really a resolvable "problem." You can't crank video cameras. They either do a framerate or they don't. My suggestion is to shoot the spacial resolution you want, and then use your NLE to stretch it. Some software is *very* good at interpolating motion and creating the tweens.

Human visual perception is much more sensitive to spacial rez than it is to temporal.

Tom Lowe · October 18th, 2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore

It's not really a resolvable "problem." You can't crank video cameras. They either do a framerate or they don't. My suggestion is to shoot the spacial resolution you want, and then use your NLE to stretch it. Some software is *very* good at interpolating motion and creating the tweens.

Human visual perception is much more sensitive to spacial rez than it is to temporal.

The camera can shoot HD at 60 fps, right? Why can't there be a software solution that changes it to 60p for slo-mo, at full res?

Tim Dashwood · October 18th, 2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Lowe

Yeah, but who wants SD footage in the middle of an HD feature? Any chance this problem will be solved in the coming months?

Yeah it's called the GY-HD7000. It will be out in 2006. Shoots and records 720P60 at a much higher bit rate with a 2/3" CCD. $27000 without a lens though. Soon the HVX200 will be available and it will be capable of overcranking to 60P in HD. It will also do some other frame rates in between as well. The other option right now is the Panasonic Varicam 960x720P.

I don't consider this to be a "problem to be solved" in the HD100. JVC is the first to even offer 576P50 or 480P60. You should be glad they threw it in in the first place. I would love a 720P60 capture/record capability to be "turned on" with a firmware update, but if we are still limited to 19.2Mb/sec, then I don't know if the image quality would be worth it. Remember that JVC has optimized the MPEG2 encoder to give data priority to 24 frames within the 19.2Mb/s, so the other 36 pulldown frames are not as high quality. If we were required to "see" every one of the 60 frames, the 19.2Mb bandwidth would need to be evenly distributed to all frames.

Tim Dashwood · October 18th, 2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Lowe

The camera can shoot HD at 60 fps, right?

No it can't. It records 720P24, P25, and P30 in a 720P60 "wrapper."

Joseph H. Moore · October 18th, 2005, 01:00 PM

If you've ever seen what Twixtor can do, you'd have little concern about overcranking in camera.

Tim Dashwood · October 18th, 2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore

If you've ever seen what Twixtor can do, you'd have little concern about overcranking in camera.

Twixtor is amazing, but there is rendering involved, and it still doesn't capture the nuances of motion captured by overcranking.

Joseph H. Moore · October 18th, 2005, 01:59 PM

No doubt, but I'd take it over upsampled SD for most normal "dramatic" uses. If you're trying to capture a bullet splitting an apple, that's a different story. ;-)

October 15th, 2005, 09:05 AM	#1
Dwight Flynn Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 393	Any HD100U shorts yet Anyone done a short with the HD100U yet (or long form tests), and if so, is it posted or viewing? If so could you provide the link?

October 15th, 2005, 10:52 AM	#2
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Here's an extended low-light test. There is another thread somewhere all about it. http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/...y-sorenson.mov

October 15th, 2005, 06:10 PM	#4
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	There really is another thread that answers all of those questions somewhere - I just can't find it right now. Anyway, here are a few of the specs: -shot between 9PM and Midnight in the rain. (no dropouts by the way.) -Ambient light level was around 2 footcandles - 5 in the hotspots of the street lights. I used a 60W china ball for the CU handheld running shot. -Stock lens with a Promist1 - ƒ1.4. -0dB gain, 1/48th shutter, preset 3200K. -MAX Standard gamma, black level NORMAL, black stretch 3, Knee at 85%, cine matrix (but the edited sequence has been colour corrected.) -All shots were 720P24 except for the slo-mo which was 576P50, conformed in cinema tools to 23.98fps, then uprezzed to 720P (and then the edited sequence was compressed into a small file size for the internet.) The point of this test was to see the absolute limits of the camera in the worst possible available light situation on a rainy night. I have so far learned a great deal from this particular test about how sensitive the HD100 actually can be (contrary to popular belief.) The progressive CCDs themselves may be less sensitive than their interlaced counterparts, but with proper control over camera processing (cranking the gamma and stretching the blacks) I found that it is actually VERY sensitive - even at 0db gain. I was able to show in another test that it was 1.5 stops more sensitive than the DVX100 using my "low-light" scene file, which would make it at least 3 stops more sensitive than the Z1 (based on Barry Green's shootout test http://dvxuser.com/articles/shoot3/ ) Based on what my lightmeter was reading (4-5 footcandle key) the night of the shoot, I would rate this gamma curve between 650-800ASA. There was some intermittent SSE on three of the shots. It can be easily fixed in post by either crushing the blacks or making a slight black adjustment to one side of the other. I have also since found another way to eliminate it from the camera while shooting with this setting and a master black level of -2 or -3, but there would be a slight loss of detail in the blacks. This footage is being made into a teaser trailer for a short film I will be shooting in a few months, so I'll post that when it is done. Tim

October 15th, 2005, 07:13 PM	#5
Dwight Flynn Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 393	Thanks Tim. I am looking for as much info as I can find about this camera going through its paces. Folks if there are additional links please post it. There should be a central locations where links for downloadable footage testing this (and other) cams can be found on this board.

October 18th, 2005, 12:20 PM	#9
Joseph H. Moore Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 362	It's not really a resolvable "problem." You can't crank video cameras. They either do a framerate or they don't. My suggestion is to shoot the spacial resolution you want, and then use your NLE to stretch it. Some software is very good at interpolating motion and creating the tweens. Human visual perception is much more sensitive to spacial rez than it is to temporal.

October 18th, 2005, 01:00 PM	#13
Joseph H. Moore Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 362	If you've ever seen what Twixtor can do, you'd have little concern about overcranking in camera.

October 18th, 2005, 01:59 PM	#15
Joseph H. Moore Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 362	No doubt, but I'd take it over upsampled SD for most normal "dramatic" uses. If you're trying to capture a bullet splitting an apple, that's a different story. ;-)