Birth of a 12,000mAh battery at DVinfo.net

Guy Barwood · October 11th, 2005, 08:47 AM

I've mentioned before that I had a little project going to make my own high capacity battery to suit the HD101 as it seems to me the IDX plate is going to be more expensive than I expected or hoped. While I don't have a HD101 yet, it is planned, but only hopefully delayed.

In the mean time this battery will also serve to support my JVC GY-DV301E which also uses the same native battery system.

I started with a generic battery for the camera, in this case an INCA BN-V428 replacement rated to only 2500mAh. This battery had never performed well and now was lucky to last 40min on my DV301.

I cut the rear end off the battery to expose the cells:
http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...gonal_open.jpg

You can see the origonal cells. They are the same height as an AA cell but with a larger radius. My replacement cells are the same radius as these cells, however about 25% taller (as you will see later). This battery contained 4 cells.

MY cells are 2400mAh 3.7v LiIon cells. To achieve 7.2v for the camera two are connected in series. To increase the capacity of the battery, these 7.2v pairs are connected in parrallel. I used 5 pairs (10 batteries). The batteries I bought have 'tabs' on them allowing soldering them together. This is needed as solder will not stick to the battery casing itself.

Here are the cells soldered together (top and bottom):
http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...p_soldered.jpg
http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...m_soldered.jpg

After removing the origonal cells from the battery by breaking its own tabs and removing each cell, I finally gained access to the from panel circuit. Checking the connections to the origonal cells it wasn't hard to work out where + and - were connected. What is interesting is there is also a centre tap from between the two cells in series. This is probably used during charging some how as 3.7v isn't used by the camera.

TO assemble the battery I used a single cell from the origonal battery (correct height for the plastic case) to hold the circuit in place at the front of the battery, and so far just a hot glue gun to hold that all in place. Add insulation tape to the batteries, and a fair amount of well placed gaffa tape and you have the result below:

http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/images/by_itself.jpg

Here it is mounted on my DV301E

http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...ed_on_body.jpg

It happily powered up the DV301E.

I have it now on my charger. Here it is on the charger. You get an idea of the scale compared to a 428 also mounted on the charger.

http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/images/on_charger.jpg

http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...n_charger2.jpg

This battery should provide a bit over 4 times the capacity of the origonal JVC 2800mAh battery. Most report about 1 hour from the origonal, so this should give up to 4 hours on a HD101, and about 6-7 hours on my DV301E (which is very cool).

I have enought batteries and another old INCA to make a second:

Cost:
INCA batteries to scavange = free as I already had them. One origonally cost AU$30 second hand.
2400mAh LiIon batteries = US$7.90 each + allow about $1 freight for each =$9 so 10x = US$90

So the cost is slightly more than the cost of a single genuine JVC BN-V428. Plus it has been fun to work it out and put it together.

It does make my DV301 a bit back heavy, but that is good. With an on camera light or wireless mic reciever on the cold shoe it is front heavy anyway, so it should help balance it out. It won't balance a HD101 out wuite so much as a decent size VMount though.

If you want more info or picks just ask.

Craig Donaldson · October 11th, 2005, 03:53 PM

looks like a bomb.

with gaffa u can build anything!

Giroud Francois · October 11th, 2005, 06:08 PM

it is like a bomb.
you should take care that li-ion batteries are highly explosive if short-circuited.
usually, some thermal fuse are insserted into the wiring.
look at www.batteryspace.com, they got anything you need to build a cheap ans safe battery.

Guy Barwood · October 11th, 2005, 07:43 PM

I got my batteries from there, and the origonal batteries were wired exactly the same as mine are. There is still all the origonal electronics in this battery it origonally had so it should be as safe as the origonal. All cells are soldered and insulated. All wire is soldered so even if it breaks it is not flexible. All I basically did is replace the cells.

It charged overnight without issue on the JVC charger.

My only concern is that some have reported only origonal JVC batteries work on the HD100. If this is the case I will come unstuck until I have a real 428 die and can scavange its electronics.

I do want to create a hard shell for the cells as a more pemanent solution however the gaffa tape provides a suprisingly good level of protection as its thinkness actually adds padding. I was also concerned about the weight off the cells pulling off the front section, but it has turned out to be very stong, easily enough to support the weight of the batteries.

Barry Green · October 11th, 2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

My only concern is that some have reported only origonal JVC batteries work on the HD100.

I can't speak for all aftermarket batteries, of course, but I can tell you that at least one aftermarket battery does work with the HD100. I'm beta-testing one now and it works fine.

John Mitchell · October 11th, 2005, 10:39 PM

Well done Guy - good project. I wondered how you were going to make it all work when you mentioned it in the original thread.

My only suggestion would be to go to jaycar or DSE and see if you can find a cheap plastic case that fits the batteries and a way of mounting the batteries stack vertically (for better balance). That way you'll be treating the original battery more like a mounting plate. Gaffer will work short term, but the glue breaks down over a period of time. Should be a fairly cheap addition. Oh and I'm unsure about using the old battery as padding - if it leaks you're going to ruin your electronics - I'm no expert on LiOn but I imagine they can leak over time.

One other small problem may be that the protective circuits are designed for particular amp hour ratings in conjunction with voltage, but unless you are drawing more current than you were with your old batt's that shouldn't be an issue.

Does your charger fully charge the battery?

Guy Barwood · October 12th, 2005, 04:32 AM

Barry: Are you testing a battery specifically designed to be compatible with the HD100 (ie gets around any battery checking) or is the battery just a new generic that you have found works with the HD100?

"My only suggestion would be to go to jaycar or DSE and see if you can find a cheap plastic case that fits the batteries and a way of mounting the batteries stack vertically (for better balance). That way you'll be treating the original battery more like a mounting plate. Gaffer will work short term, but the glue breaks down over a period of time. Should be a fairly cheap addition."

That is the plan for the long term, for now the gaffa will do while I search for such a housing.

"Oh and I'm unsure about using the old battery as padding - if it leaks you're going to ruin your electronics - I'm no expert on LiOn but I imagine they can leak over time."
I assume it wouldn't leak any more than it might if the battery was still in its origonal condition, I hope anyway... I could easily replace with a block off wood in the final construction.

"One other small problem may be that the protective circuits are designed for particular amp hour ratings in conjunction with voltage, but unless you are drawing more current than you were with your old batt's that shouldn't be an issue."
As I wouldn't be drawing any more current it should be just fine. The supply voltage is the same, as is the load so same power going through the electonics, its just more batteries in parrallel, and like using a D Cell to power something designed for an AA or C.

Does your charger fully charge the battery?"
The charger was indicating a full charge this morning, but I have not yet tested the real world endurance. I will soon though and report back.

Michael Maier · October 12th, 2005, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

I can't speak for all aftermarket batteries, of course, but I can tell you that at least one aftermarket battery does work with the HD100. I'm beta-testing one now and it works fine.

Come on Barry, tells us more. :)

John Mitchell · October 12th, 2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

"Oh and I'm unsure about using the old battery as padding - if it leaks you're going to ruin your electronics - I'm no expert on LiOn but I imagine they can leak over time."
I assume it wouldn't leak any more than it might if the battery was still in its origonal condition, I hope anyway... I could easily replace with a block off wood in the final construction.

The charger was indicating a full charge this morning, but I have not yet tested the real world endurance. I will soon though and report back.

Sorry Guy - I missed the previous post where you mentioned you were looking for an appropriate hard case. I'd suggest ABS plastic.

Most cells are prone to leakage as they get older especially if left uncharged. Lithium is a particuarly corrosive metal (more corrosive than a standard alkaline battery for instance), although I don't think there's much in a cell.

You're probably fine with the charger unless there is a significant difference in voltage between the old pack fully charged and the new one.

Barry Green · October 12th, 2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

Barry: Are you testing a battery specifically designed to be compatible with the HD100 (ie gets around any battery checking) or is the battery just a new generic that you have found works with the HD100?

The HD100 battery is the same as that used for their other cameras. This one that I have is a new model, higher-capacity than the other (it's 3300mah vs. 2800 for the stock battery). It works on the HD1, and it also works on the HD100.

There's nothing particular about the HD100 that precludes third-party batteries, as far as I can tell, because the battery it uses was designed and marketed years before there was an HD100. It uses regular JVC camcorder batteries.

Guy Barwood · October 13th, 2005, 12:23 AM

Your the first I have heard who has the new 438 battery (I think thats its code). It should help a little but still sounds like it wouldn't last much more than about an 60-80min (40-60min for the 428)?

There were some rumours early on that JVC have somehow locked the HD100 out of third party JVC mount batteries (like Sony did with the Z1), I think even one person canceled a generic order and got JVC instead in fear from this rumour. It must be said though no one has actually reported any incompatibilities yet, however I think Barry, you are the only one around here that has tried.

John Mitchell · October 13th, 2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

There were some rumours early on that JVC have somehow locked the HD100 out of third party JVC mount batteries (like Sony did with the Z1), I think even one person canceled a generic order and got JVC instead in fear from this rumour. It must be said though no one has actually reported any incompatibilities yet, however I think Barry, you are the only one around here that has tried.

I doubt this Guy as mine works with the gold mount adapter and thrid party batteries that don't contain all the electronics of the AB's.

Michael Maier · October 13th, 2005, 02:35 PM

I think Guy was talking about the smaller batteries, not the AB ones.

Guy Barwood · October 13th, 2005, 05:42 PM

That's right. I am not saying this is true, but there should be previous discussions in this forum about it. If it was true, the electronic in the AB mount would simply have the correct way of identifing themselves to the camera anyway as in theory the JVC batteries do.

It is all probably hogwash, I hope it is or my batteries won't work on these cameras, so I am pretty much counting on them working.

I am most of the way through making my second 12,000mAh battery now.

Initally the second attempt didn't show any voltage at the terminals of the electronics (there was a voltage at the battreies themselves), so I thought the electronics were bust. But I gave it a charge and low and behold once charged it seems to work fine. The batteries much have been below a critical level to work the electronics. Phew....

So now my first battery has a brother ;-)

Laszlo Horvath · October 13th, 2005, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

There were some rumours early on that JVC have somehow locked the HD100 out of third party JVC mount batteries (like Sony did with the Z1), I think even one person canceled a generic order and got JVC instead in fear from this rumour. It must be said though no one has actually reported any incompatibilities yet, however I think Barry, you are the only one around here that has tried.

(Ha-ha it's my first post here)
Yes, I bought five 428 third party batteries on e-bay from a Missisauga ON. Canada based seller. Either one shoot the camera down after two mins.
Now I bought the IDX V-mount adapter, (just the adapter) I can't be happier. I can use my Switronix 130 batteries, work like a charm.
The only wierd thing is in the viewfinder it's show 16 V or later 14V instead of 7.2 V

Laszlo

October 11th, 2005, 08:47 AM	#1
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	Birth of a 12,000mAh battery I've mentioned before that I had a little project going to make my own high capacity battery to suit the HD101 as it seems to me the IDX plate is going to be more expensive than I expected or hoped. While I don't have a HD101 yet, it is planned, but only hopefully delayed. In the mean time this battery will also serve to support my JVC GY-DV301E which also uses the same native battery system. I started with a generic battery for the camera, in this case an INCA BN-V428 replacement rated to only 2500mAh. This battery had never performed well and now was lucky to last 40min on my DV301. I cut the rear end off the battery to expose the cells: http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...gonal_open.jpg You can see the origonal cells. They are the same height as an AA cell but with a larger radius. My replacement cells are the same radius as these cells, however about 25% taller (as you will see later). This battery contained 4 cells. MY cells are 2400mAh 3.7v LiIon cells. To achieve 7.2v for the camera two are connected in series. To increase the capacity of the battery, these 7.2v pairs are connected in parrallel. I used 5 pairs (10 batteries). The batteries I bought have 'tabs' on them allowing soldering them together. This is needed as solder will not stick to the battery casing itself. Here are the cells soldered together (top and bottom): http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...p_soldered.jpg http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...m_soldered.jpg After removing the origonal cells from the battery by breaking its own tabs and removing each cell, I finally gained access to the from panel circuit. Checking the connections to the origonal cells it wasn't hard to work out where + and - were connected. What is interesting is there is also a centre tap from between the two cells in series. This is probably used during charging some how as 3.7v isn't used by the camera. TO assemble the battery I used a single cell from the origonal battery (correct height for the plastic case) to hold the circuit in place at the front of the battery, and so far just a hot glue gun to hold that all in place. Add insulation tape to the batteries, and a fair amount of well placed gaffa tape and you have the result below: http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/images/by_itself.jpg Here it is mounted on my DV301E http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...ed_on_body.jpg It happily powered up the DV301E. I have it now on my charger. Here it is on the charger. You get an idea of the scale compared to a 428 also mounted on the charger. http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/images/on_charger.jpg http://www.glasseye.com.au/hd101e/im...n_charger2.jpg This battery should provide a bit over 4 times the capacity of the origonal JVC 2800mAh battery. Most report about 1 hour from the origonal, so this should give up to 4 hours on a HD101, and about 6-7 hours on my DV301E (which is very cool). I have enought batteries and another old INCA to make a second: Cost: INCA batteries to scavange = free as I already had them. One origonally cost AU$30 second hand. 2400mAh LiIon batteries = US$7.90 each + allow about $1 freight for each =$9 so 10x = US$90 So the cost is slightly more than the cost of a single genuine JVC BN-V428. Plus it has been fun to work it out and put it together. It does make my DV301 a bit back heavy, but that is good. With an on camera light or wireless mic reciever on the cold shoe it is front heavy anyway, so it should help balance it out. It won't balance a HD101 out wuite so much as a decent size VMount though. If you want more info or picks just ask.

October 11th, 2005, 03:53 PM	#2
Craig Donaldson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 80	looks like a bomb. with gaffa u can build anything!

October 11th, 2005, 06:08 PM	#3
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	it is like a bomb. you should take care that li-ion batteries are highly explosive if short-circuited. usually, some thermal fuse are insserted into the wiring. look at www.batteryspace.com, they got anything you need to build a cheap ans safe battery.

October 11th, 2005, 07:43 PM	#4
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	I got my batteries from there, and the origonal batteries were wired exactly the same as mine are. There is still all the origonal electronics in this battery it origonally had so it should be as safe as the origonal. All cells are soldered and insulated. All wire is soldered so even if it breaks it is not flexible. All I basically did is replace the cells. It charged overnight without issue on the JVC charger. My only concern is that some have reported only origonal JVC batteries work on the HD100. If this is the case I will come unstuck until I have a real 428 die and can scavange its electronics. I do want to create a hard shell for the cells as a more pemanent solution however the gaffa tape provides a suprisingly good level of protection as its thinkness actually adds padding. I was also concerned about the weight off the cells pulling off the front section, but it has turned out to be very stong, easily enough to support the weight of the batteries.

October 11th, 2005, 10:39 PM	#6
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Well done Guy - good project. I wondered how you were going to make it all work when you mentioned it in the original thread. My only suggestion would be to go to jaycar or DSE and see if you can find a cheap plastic case that fits the batteries and a way of mounting the batteries stack vertically (for better balance). That way you'll be treating the original battery more like a mounting plate. Gaffer will work short term, but the glue breaks down over a period of time. Should be a fairly cheap addition. Oh and I'm unsure about using the old battery as padding - if it leaks you're going to ruin your electronics - I'm no expert on LiOn but I imagine they can leak over time. One other small problem may be that the protective circuits are designed for particular amp hour ratings in conjunction with voltage, but unless you are drawing more current than you were with your old batt's that shouldn't be an issue. Does your charger fully charge the battery?

October 12th, 2005, 04:32 AM	#7
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	Barry: Are you testing a battery specifically designed to be compatible with the HD100 (ie gets around any battery checking) or is the battery just a new generic that you have found works with the HD100? "My only suggestion would be to go to jaycar or DSE and see if you can find a cheap plastic case that fits the batteries and a way of mounting the batteries stack vertically (for better balance). That way you'll be treating the original battery more like a mounting plate. Gaffer will work short term, but the glue breaks down over a period of time. Should be a fairly cheap addition." That is the plan for the long term, for now the gaffa will do while I search for such a housing. "Oh and I'm unsure about using the old battery as padding - if it leaks you're going to ruin your electronics - I'm no expert on LiOn but I imagine they can leak over time." I assume it wouldn't leak any more than it might if the battery was still in its origonal condition, I hope anyway... I could easily replace with a block off wood in the final construction. "One other small problem may be that the protective circuits are designed for particular amp hour ratings in conjunction with voltage, but unless you are drawing more current than you were with your old batt's that shouldn't be an issue." As I wouldn't be drawing any more current it should be just fine. The supply voltage is the same, as is the load so same power going through the electonics, its just more batteries in parrallel, and like using a D Cell to power something designed for an AA or C. Does your charger fully charge the battery?" The charger was indicating a full charge this morning, but I have not yet tested the real world endurance. I will soon though and report back.

October 13th, 2005, 12:23 AM	#11
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	Your the first I have heard who has the new 438 battery (I think thats its code). It should help a little but still sounds like it wouldn't last much more than about an 60-80min (40-60min for the 428)? There were some rumours early on that JVC have somehow locked the HD100 out of third party JVC mount batteries (like Sony did with the Z1), I think even one person canceled a generic order and got JVC instead in fear from this rumour. It must be said though no one has actually reported any incompatibilities yet, however I think Barry, you are the only one around here that has tried.

October 13th, 2005, 02:35 PM	#13
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	I think Guy was talking about the smaller batteries, not the AB ones.

October 13th, 2005, 05:42 PM	#14
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	That's right. I am not saying this is true, but there should be previous discussions in this forum about it. If it was true, the electronic in the AB mount would simply have the correct way of identifing themselves to the camera anyway as in theory the JVC batteries do. It is all probably hogwash, I hope it is or my batteries won't work on these cameras, so I am pretty much counting on them working. I am most of the way through making my second 12,000mAh battery now. Initally the second attempt didn't show any voltage at the terminals of the electronics (there was a voltage at the battreies themselves), so I thought the electronics were bust. But I gave it a charge and low and behold once charged it seems to work fine. The batteries much have been below a critical level to work the electronics. Phew.... So now my first battery has a brother ;-)