JVC or Panny / HDV or DVCpro HD?

John Mitchell · October 12th, 2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

It offers both.

There are three different speed implementations of firewire; the original was 100-megabit, the current is 400 megabit, and the latest is FW800 (which is, of course, 800 megabit). The HVX uses the 400-megabit standard, plenty fast enough. It's a proven system that's already working for live capture in Avid and Apple systems; the AJ-HD1200A deck uses firewire to transport DVCPRO-HD data to the computer.

Barry - I've never seen the DVCProHD codec in action but I was a big fan of DVCPro50 which to my eye was always superior to Digibeta, especially in PAL where digibeta could often exhibit cross-luminance errors. Wondered if you had much experience with the HD codec and how good it is?

BTW I wish Panny had updated their codecs (especially HD) to support all the frame rates natively - would have made more sense to me, than persisting with a pulldown system.

Barry Green · October 12th, 2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Barry - I've never seen the DVCProHD codec in action but I was a big fan of DVCPro50 which to my eye was always superior to Digibeta, especially in PAL where digibeta could often exhibit cross-luminance errors. Wondered if you had much experience with the HD codec and how good it is?

DVCPRO50 is superb, no doubt about it. Not quite to the same level as DigiBeta, as DigiBeta is 10-bit and DVCPRO50 is 8-bit, but considering the price difference, DVCPRO50 rocks!

DVCPRO-HD is pretty darn good. I know I'll get yelled at for this, but DVCPRO-HD blows the doors off of HDV. It is not, however, as "clean" as DVCPRO50. DVCPRO50 uses compression that's milder than DV (the DCT phase is about 3.3:1 for DVCPRO50, 5:1 for DV). DVCPRO-HD's DCT stage is about 6.7:1. So you do get mosquito noise here and there, but the double color resolution makes up for it. In 720p HDV, under ideal circumstances (i.e., shooting a static shot), HDV can actually render less mosquito noise than DVCPRO-HD, although DVCPRO-HD still delivers the better-looking picture because of the color resolution; under less-than-ideal conditions for HDV (i.e., moving shots), DVCPRO-HD spanks it. In 1080 there's never a question, DVCPRO-HD is always far superior.

You can experiment with the codec yourself by downloading the Avid Codec Pack and using their DV100 codec; it works within quicktime applications on PCs.

Quote:

BTW I wish Panny had updated their codecs (especially HD) to support all the frame rates natively - would have made more sense to me, than persisting with a pulldown system.

There's no pulldown when working with progressive. In interlaced there is, but they did it to keep it compatible with the existing DVCPRO-HD equipment out there. They've had decks and cameras and editing equipment on the market using this codec for over 4 years now; wouldn't have necessarily been the best move to change that and make it incompatible. As it is, the HVX can firewire directly to an AJ-HD1200A tape deck, or to Avid Express Pro HD or FCP5 or Canopus Edius; couldn't have done that if they'd changed the codec.

Steven White · October 12th, 2005, 01:17 PM

In comparing the HVX200 to the JVC HD100 for chroma work, is probably only worth comparing the 1080p modes of the HVX to the JVC 720p format.

At 720p, the HDV format has the same amount of data per frame (do the math: 1280x720 4:2:0 has exactly the same number of bits of information as 960x720 4:2:2), and in many situations the HDV signal will be cleaner thanks to the efficiency of the MPEG-2 coding. This efficiency disappears when comparing to 100 Mbps DVCPRO-HD - in which case the 1080 modes of the DVCPRO-HD should kick HDV's petutie.

Of course - there's a lot of other factors that will affect chroma work - namely lens, lattitude, gamma, split-screen errors etc. Given the number of problems reported with HD100s, one might suggest waiting for the HVX to see if it's any better.

-Steve

Stephen L. Noe · October 12th, 2005, 01:32 PM

A couple of months ago there was an m2t file of a blue screen and a hand waiving in the scene. I used: Primatte, Boris Red 3 and Liquid 6 YUV keyer against it and it came out clean in all three without using spill supression or a composite choker. That was on an HDV timeline. I also used the HDV m2t on a DVCPro50 SD timeline and fit the aspect (it rendered) then performed a bluescreen key on the fused file the key was terrific.

Either way it turned out well with that clip.

Thomas Smet · October 12th, 2005, 03:08 PM

CA from the lens could be a huge pain as well. Imagine shooting green screen and your subject has a green glow and bleed on the edge or shooting blue screen and having the magenta flare on the edge. Not fun to key at all. This would be even worse if you were doing a complex green screen shoot where the focus changes. At one point there would be a huge green edge and then it would go away. This will cause your key edges to pulse in and out.

Anmol Mishra · April 6th, 2008, 11:08 PM

Hi Barry..From an old post..
I am actually thinking of getting a SDX-900E and shooting my film in 16:9 PAL 25p instead of HD..Much easier workflow too

However, the DVCPro50 SDX900e advertises 12-bit processing..If DVCPro50 is only 8-bit is there any use for the extra precision..Seems a bit of a waste..

I was going to use Algolith Algosuite software or the Terranex Mini h/w for upscaling if needed..

The HPX500 is supposed to use the same sensor as this anyway. And from what I have gathered the native res of the sensor is still not 1080 - it in interpolated within camera to HD res..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

DVCPRO50 is superb, no doubt about it. Not quite to the same level as DigiBeta, as DigiBeta is 10-bit and DVCPRO50 is 8-bit, but considering the price difference, DVCPRO50 rocks!

DVCPRO-HD is pretty darn good. I know I'll get yelled at for this, but DVCPRO-HD blows the doors off of HDV. It is not, however, as "clean" as DVCPRO50. DVCPRO50 uses compression that's milder than DV (the DCT phase is about 3.3:1 for DVCPRO50, 5:1 for DV). DVCPRO-HD's DCT stage is about 6.7:1. So you do get mosquito noise here and there, but the double color resolution makes up for it. In 720p HDV, under ideal circumstances (i.e., shooting a static shot), HDV can actually render less mosquito noise than DVCPRO-HD, although DVCPRO-HD still delivers the better-looking picture because of the color resolution; under less-than-ideal conditions for HDV (i.e., moving shots), DVCPRO-HD spanks it. In 1080 there's never a question, DVCPRO-HD is always far superior.

You can experiment with the codec yourself by downloading the Avid Codec Pack and using their DV100 codec; it works within quicktime applications on PCs.

There's no pulldown when working with progressive. In interlaced there is, but they did it to keep it compatible with the existing DVCPRO-HD equipment out there. They've had decks and cameras and editing equipment on the market using this codec for over 4 years now; wouldn't have necessarily been the best move to change that and make it incompatible. As it is, the HVX can firewire directly to an AJ-HD1200A tape deck, or to Avid Express Pro HD or FCP5 or Canopus Edius; couldn't have done that if they'd changed the codec.

Alex Humphrey · April 7th, 2008, 06:54 PM

something else to consider. if you are doing green screen work, you will be at home or the studio. why not take the JVC 60p live outputs that are uncompressed and capture via component HD into your tower with a decent $500 card? That would be 10,000 times better (mild exaggeration). I havn't used the Panasonic HVX200, but I thought it had live output as well? If so, then you should use live uncompressed output capture via componenet HD card in your tower for the HVX200 as well.

This way the only limiting factor is the sensor and the lens. the uncompressed video output then capture via a HD component card in uncompressed HD or often a card propriety format will be better than HDV or even DVCPRO-HD.

Alex Humphrey · April 7th, 2008, 07:17 PM

quote Barry "DVCPRO-HD is pretty darn good. I know I'll get yelled at for this, but DVCPRO-HD blows the doors off of HDV."

Don't worry Barry, your still our friend and we respect what you have to say.

I agree with you on the DVCPRO-HD, it rocks pretty good. if I could have afforded a HPX500 and p2 cards for 3 hours of footage at a time I would be right there with you. I ended up with a HD110 and HD100DTE firestore. It works good and is solid. Occasionally I do see macroblocking and garbage on 720p HDV however. If anyone wants to see 720p macroblocking I can post it, but in general HDV is pretty good.

I wish DVCPRO-HD was as good as DVCPRO-50 and full real 1980x1080p. Now that would be awsome. It would also require a RAID for casual use, but heck, RAIDS are cheap now.

October 12th, 2005, 01:17 PM	#18
Steven White Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 547	In comparing the HVX200 to the JVC HD100 for chroma work, is probably only worth comparing the 1080p modes of the HVX to the JVC 720p format. At 720p, the HDV format has the same amount of data per frame (do the math: 1280x720 4:2:0 has exactly the same number of bits of information as 960x720 4:2:2), and in many situations the HDV signal will be cleaner thanks to the efficiency of the MPEG-2 coding. This efficiency disappears when comparing to 100 Mbps DVCPRO-HD - in which case the 1080 modes of the DVCPRO-HD should kick HDV's petutie. Of course - there's a lot of other factors that will affect chroma work - namely lens, lattitude, gamma, split-screen errors etc. Given the number of problems reported with HD100s, one might suggest waiting for the HVX to see if it's any better. -Steve

October 12th, 2005, 01:32 PM	#19
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	A couple of months ago there was an m2t file of a blue screen and a hand waiving in the scene. I used: Primatte, Boris Red 3 and Liquid 6 YUV keyer against it and it came out clean in all three without using spill supression or a composite choker. That was on an HDV timeline. I also used the HDV m2t on a DVCPro50 SD timeline and fit the aspect (it rendered) then performed a bluescreen key on the fused file the key was terrific. Either way it turned out well with that clip.

October 12th, 2005, 03:08 PM	#20
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	CA from the lens could be a huge pain as well. Imagine shooting green screen and your subject has a green glow and bleed on the edge or shooting blue screen and having the magenta flare on the edge. Not fun to key at all. This would be even worse if you were doing a complex green screen shoot where the focus changes. At one point there would be a huge green edge and then it would go away. This will cause your key edges to pulse in and out.

April 7th, 2008, 06:54 PM	#22
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	something else to consider. if you are doing green screen work, you will be at home or the studio. why not take the JVC 60p live outputs that are uncompressed and capture via component HD into your tower with a decent $500 card? That would be 10,000 times better (mild exaggeration). I havn't used the Panasonic HVX200, but I thought it had live output as well? If so, then you should use live uncompressed output capture via componenet HD card in your tower for the HVX200 as well. This way the only limiting factor is the sensor and the lens. the uncompressed video output then capture via a HD component card in uncompressed HD or often a card propriety format will be better than HDV or even DVCPRO-HD.

April 7th, 2008, 07:17 PM	#23
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	quote Barry "DVCPRO-HD is pretty darn good. I know I'll get yelled at for this, but DVCPRO-HD blows the doors off of HDV." Don't worry Barry, your still our friend and we respect what you have to say. I agree with you on the DVCPRO-HD, it rocks pretty good. if I could have afforded a HPX500 and p2 cards for 3 hours of footage at a time I would be right there with you. I ended up with a HD110 and HD100DTE firestore. It works good and is solid. Occasionally I do see macroblocking and garbage on 720p HDV however. If anyone wants to see 720p macroblocking I can post it, but in general HDV is pretty good. I wish DVCPRO-HD was as good as DVCPRO-50 and full real 1980x1080p. Now that would be awsome. It would also require a RAID for casual use, but heck, RAIDS are cheap now.