Split screen technical explanation

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

Can anybody tell me about similar grade 'flaws' or 'defects' on DSR150/170, Z1U, DVX100/100A or XL2?

Off topic to this discussion. Please start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

[Jiri Bakala]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Off topic to this discussion. Please start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Not really, it was meant to bring another perspective to our on-going discussion about the split-screen. It's playing devil's advocate...:-)

[Guy Barwood]

No I don't have one yet. I have a very good chance of being able to sell my DV500 for about AU$5500-6000 which means it would only be about AU$2000-$2500 for me to buy if I let my DV500 go.

So while $2000 isn't a huge amount of money, letting the DV500 go is a big step for me. I loose 3 XLR inputs (for 2 channels), CRT viewfinder, native VMount support, 1/2" SD block, nice enough 16x Canon lens, a camera with presence etc

What I would gain is native 16:9 even if just shooting DV and the option to use HDV (576 50p interests me as well.), colour LCD on the body.

What I would loose is about 1-1.5 stops of sensitivity, and the ability to shoot in anything but ideal lighting without being in serious danger of getting this split screen. I can see how 80-90% of a wedding reception might show this problem as well as inside some of the darker chruchs' and I can't do this to someone's wedding video.

So will I sell. Probably, I have to get some money back for the DV500 before it looses all value, but will I buy a HD101E. No, I won't. Not at least at the moment. I'll shoot with my DV301, hold on to the money from the DV500 and wait until either it is fixed or a better option/new model comes along. If it didn't have this split screen, would I buy it? Absolutely.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

Honestly Steve, I think you are just making excuses for JVC.

Please lighten up on that attitude... I don't allow this sort of thing here. DV Info Net is for the discussion of technology and technique, not for finger pointing or personal slants. Besides I know Steve personally, and I have seen him really lay into a manufacturer before, by posing very difficult and challenging questions at press conferences and trade shows. He is not on anybody's "side," he is simply being realistic about this situation, no matter how painful it may be. Let us please lay off the accusations and personal admonitions... that is the sort of thing to be expected at other web sites, but definitely not here at DV Info Net. Let's keep it focused on the gear and the technique. Thanks in advance,

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

I have a very good chance of being able to sell my DV500 for about AU$5500-6000 which means it would only be about AU$2000-$2500 for me to buy if I let my DV500 go.

I think that's an excellent price, by the way (with my vague understanding of the AU dollar). That is a fine camera package. Seems to me like you should have no trouble finding that kind of money for it.

[Jiri Bakala]

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

... letting the DV500 go is a big step for me.

To make you feel better, I just sold my Sony DSR-500. Fantastic camera, 16x9, CRT VF, all that. Why? A handful of reasons;
1. The world is moving to HD and there is demand for 24p
2. In my market, few clients ever paid for the DSR-500
3. We seem to be getting bigger jobs for which we rent CineAlta and for other smaller scale work (corporate, travel docs, etc.) a small HDV will do fine
4. We have some travel-related work coming and crossing the border, particularily between our two friendly countries (US-Canada) is a major pain and hassle and so I hope that with a smaller HDV camera we'll travel easier.

Yeah, it is a big step for me too. But the business and operational realities have to override emotional attachements (we all have them to our beloved gear) and one just have to move on.

Hope this helps.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

I don't think JVC said "if the camera has the split screen then it is to be replaced, no questions asked"

Because all cameras have it. Maybe they said if it's visble under +18db or something, you can bring it back.

You've got it right! If you bought a PAL unit, you should get it updated. End of story.

If you got a USA model and the problem is really severe -- contact JVC as it my need "adjusting." Even the USA QC process can fail End of story.

But, SSE is acknowledged by JVC to be part of the HD100's nature. Just like the uneven timimg of the frames in CF24 is part of the CF24 mode's nature. Neither are going to be "fixed" because they are not "problems" but "characteristics" of their design. End of story.

The plain fact is SSE is prevented by adequate lighting. Repeat: SSE is prevented by adequate lighting.

I have wonderfull night time shots as the same menu tweaks that increase latitude for Las Vegas bright day shots, work for Times Square shots at night!

We all now know HD requires much more light than SD. So the decision is simply, given the requirements for more light -- can you work with low-cost HD camcorders?

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

But, SSE is acknowledged by JVC to be part of the HD100's nature. Just like the uneven timimg of the frames in CF24 is part of the CF24 mode's nature. Neither are going to be "fixed" because they are not "problems" but "characteristics" of their design. End of story.

I agree with this outlook. I personally believe the flaw to be a shortcoming of their design they chose to overcome realities of CCD design, and it will not be going away until the next product rev.

Instead in hollering and yelling about JVC's policy and actions, I propose we accept the reality of the situation, and move onto more useful discussions like how the effect can be minimized or avoided.

I am not a JVC apologist, I'm just simply "over it".

[p.s. I got a look at HVX footage last night, on a high-res LCD. While I admire the camera for it's forward thinking P2 design and other features, I am certainly not regretting my HD100 purchase quite yet in light of what I saw. The Canon now might be another story.]

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

I can see how 80-90% of a wedding reception might show this problem as well as inside some of the darker chruchs' and I can't do this to someone's wedding video.

You know, I might be totally wrong here. But something tells me JVC didn't design the HD100 with wedding videographers in mind. 24 frames per second, no interlaced mode, cine gamma. Sounds more like a camera geared towards filmmakers.

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Instead in hollering and yelling about JVC's policy and actions, I propose we accept the reality of the situation, and move onto more useful discussions like how the effect can be minimized or avoided.

I am not a JVC apologist, I'm just simply "over it".

I agree Nate. Everytime I start a thread on a different aspect of the camera, it degenerates into a split-screen discussion.
Maybe Chris can just start a sticky split-screen thread, and then we'll can leave all of these comments in there.

I don't want to be a JVC apologist either, but I don't think it helps the customers for some on this board to suggest that JVC intended to release this camera with a known defect and hope no one would notice. That's just stupid.
I imagine they realized there was a big problem as soon as the European customers started reporting it in July, but it was probably too late in the delivery cycle to catch all the bad apples in the North American shipment. I was a victim of this first NA shipment - I received mine August 20.

I'm quite happy with my replacement cameras, but one still shows the problem intermittently. I will probably have to replace it again.
However, before I do that, I'm just concentrating on pushing the camera to its limits and documenting split-screen occurances so that I may be able to help JVC in some small way. I want to get this issue solved before I go into production on my next film.

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

Instead in hollering and yelling about JVC's policy and actions, I propose we accept the reality of the situation, and move onto more useful discussions like how the effect can be minimized or avoided.

You just beat me to the punch Nate.


Chris, I know I'm pretty new around here and I might be jumping my boundaries with this,. Or maybe I don’t even have the right of asking it. But could we get a stick thread with a title on the lines of " If the HD100 is not for you, please buy something else and leave the people who likes it alone evolve with their cameras" ?

This whole split screen bragging is really getting long in the tooth, and just wastes bandwidth and space, while we could be discussing how to get the best out of the camera.
Maybe those expecting something else could just go to the H1 or HVX200 forum and speculate about those cameras, leaving us alone here to evolve with the gear we have chosen. It’s not that people are not allowed to criticise or to point flaws in the camera. If something else comes up, it should definitely be posted and discussed. But the split has been explained and analysed to death. It has been said it’s not a defect as it’s a design compromise in order to offer an under $6,000 720p camera. Those who either can’t accept it or don’t think it’s right can move on. Just buy a HVX200 or a H1. What’s the point of beating the dead horse, if the camera is not for you? Let’s focus on developing ways to work around the limitations, to develop settings for different shooting conditions, reporting dropout frequency with the particular tape brand you are using, report what accessories you are using with the camera, and whatever move us forward in the process of understanding and getting the best of the camera we have chose to use.
Is it too much to ask?

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

Maybe Chris can just start a sticky split-screen thread, and then we'll can leave all of these comments in there.

Beat me while I was typing Tim :)

Just reinforces the idea that this split screen topic is way over blown, over discussed and about ready to be put to death.

[David Dessel]

I just bought this camera. I have not discovered the split screen effect so far. That includes shooting at magic hour in NYC with lots headlights, tailights, street lights, and illumated signs.

I have been reviewing the footage on an HD monitor and I am blown away.
The image is beautiful, simply put.

This camera is a fantasitic value for the money.

Every camera I have ever owned for the past 15+ years has had limitations or quirks. I will gladly live with whatever quirks this camera has given the image it is delivering.

The lens is not perfect, but it's really quite nice and the zoom ratio is quite generous for this price point.

The ergonomics of the camera as well as its balance are first class.

The viewfinder could be better, but with Zebra Indicator will keep you out of trouble if you know what your are doing.

I am so inspired to make images with this camera.

I will make movies.
I will make commercials.
I will make TV shows.
I will make art.
I will make money.

I am very happy. I have been in the business for years and I know the value of what this camera provides. I have dreamed of a camera like this for year.

I do not own JVC stock.

Thank you JVC,

David Dessel

[Stephen L. Noe]

On Tim's footage it was like a "where's waldo" for alot of poeple. I didn't notice the split until I was really getting up close and looking for it specifically. Nevertheless, it was evident and once it was pointed it was obvious. Tim, I don't think this thread degenerated into a splitscreen discussion since it was labeled splitscreen from the beginning.

@Chris Hurd, I understand what Guy is saying in that Steve Mullen wrote his post as if he was speaking on behalf of JVC. That's exactly the impression I got as well.

@Steve Mullen, Hopefully you can see that what you've written reads like you are a person of authority at JVC. I see how anyone could misconstrue what you've written as JVC's stance on the subject of split screen. Fact is that there is nothing officially from JVC on the matter.

Anyway, all the jabbering aside, I'd like to know how many people are going to be dedicating the camera to 60 lux shots???

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

@Steve Mullen, Hopefully you can see that what you've written reads like you are a person of authority at JVC. I see how anyone could misconstrue what you've written as JVC's stance on the subject of split screen. Fact is that there is nothing officially from JVC on the matter.

If I came accross that way it's only because I have the camera to review and I've been talking with JVC. Frankly, I'm now focused on the magic menu controls -- some of which are clearly for film makers.

I'd love to be a "person of authority" at any company if it meant I didn't have to give back my review unit in a few weeks. I feel like Ive been given a Bolex in some respects (it feels so familar to have a hand-held camera with a real lens) and a Cine-Alta in other respects (my god there are a lot controls to master).

I'm also often simply blown away by how good stuff looks projected to 7 feet.