Split screen technical explanation

Michael Maier · September 29th, 2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

I know this issue is to be reported in our video producers association. JVC don't have a particualry good rep with most of the producers I speak to here and this will just reinforce their opinions of JVC products. It's a shame because with a product like the HD101 they could be doing the opposite, winning a lot of them over.

It will change as soon as somebody puts out something great done with a HD100. Then the whole online video/film community will forget about the split screen, and the HD100 will be every filmmaker wannabe's favourite camera :D

Robert Castiglione · September 29th, 2005, 01:05 AM

The real test for me will come in November when I will be shooting a drama for two weeks with the camera under all sorts of lighting conditions. If the camera performs under those conditions, I will feel fine about it.

Rob

Tom Roper · September 29th, 2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Absolutely correct. I've been in the tradeshow trenches for close to a decade, and maybe one out of ten non-exhibitor people I talk to will tell me that they follow the internet discussions on this stuff (and I ask just about all of 'em). The people who aren't reading this site or any of the others far outnumber those who do. And not to be meant as a dig at anybody, I mean I love you all, but presumably it's because all those other folks are too busy to spend time surfing the web... and when they do get online, it ain't to follow video stuff, but to buy from Amazon and book travel through Expedia.

Wouldn't surprise me. But the problem is it sends a message that it's okay to make no effort to know your customers since the ones you don't know do the majority of the buying and they presumably don't care or are too busy to make time for due diligence. Either way, it's a poor excuse for a business model to operate under that could put you out of luck if you were guilty of buyer's negligence.
The technology is not going to roll backwards. There will be other great camcorders to compete, without making excuses.

Jiri Bakala · September 29th, 2005, 01:30 PM

I stronly disagree. People might be too busy to casually 'surf' but I am pretty sure that when they are about to buy this kind of camera (or any other slightly more expensive equipment) they will do their research. Just think about who are the people buying this gear; mostly technically savvy guys (no offence ladies out there). Even dealers may point you to sites like this (happened to me just the other day). In my oppinion JVC (and other manufactures) need to pay attantion to sites like this one and respond to their customer base in a direct and honest fashion. Remember, most people will forgive you if you honestly admit a mistake and try to do something about it but will hold grudges forever if you lie and cheat.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · September 29th, 2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

I stronly disagree. People might be too busy to casually 'surf' but I am pretty sure that when they are about to buy this kind of camera (or any other slightly more expensive equipment) they will do their research. Just think about who are the people buying this gear; mostly technically savvy guys (no offence ladies out there). Even dealers may point you to sites like this (happened to me just the other day). In my oppinion JVC (and other manufactures) need to pay attantion to sites like this one and respond to their customer base in a direct and honest fashion. Remember, most people will forgive you if you honestly admit a mistake and try to do something about it but will hold grudges forever if you lie and cheat.

Jiri,
you're welcome to disagree, but Chris is 100% correct. People that are buying these cams aren't researching this, or anything else in depth.
Often times, community members get caught up in the microcosm of the on-line world but rarely is a community any more than 5% of the total market.
The things we know in the communities take forever to filter down to the general masses, as evidence by what we see/hear at roadshows, tradeshows, and emails from people requesting information/techsupport/assistance.
That's true for most any part of our industry.

Nate Weaver · September 29th, 2005, 02:42 PM

Agree with Chris and Spot.

Make no mistake. We are a small subset of uber-camera-nerds. Most people simply don't care about this stuff to this degree.

If I DP a shoot with the HD100 and I manipulate the shots and lighting so it's shortcomings are not seen, then everybody I work with will think it's an amazing camera...and they'll be right to a degree.

All I know is I'm better off with it than the DVX, and that's all I care about for the time being.

Terry Nixon · September 29th, 2005, 03:02 PM

the JVC rep for my dealership discussed the split screen issue with us today. He acknowledged that some models early in the production run experienced this issue and that newer models now being shipped should work fine.

He indicated that if we sold a GY-HD100U that has the split screen issue, that we as the dealer should DOA it with JVC and provide a new unit to the customer. JVC would then exchange the defective unit with the dealer.

JVC also has a "Perfect Experience" policy that provides for new replacement products directly from JVC for DOA and related performance issues. I have had customers that were out of state use this policy to speed an exchange on a DOA.

Here's the link: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/pepolicy.jsp

Terry Nixon
Texas Media Systems

Chris Hurd · September 29th, 2005, 04:49 PM

(Tom refers to my observation that the majority of buyers in this market do not surf the web researching this stuff:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Wouldn't surprise me. But the problem is it sends a message that it's okay to make no effort to know your customers since the ones you don't know do the majority of the buying and they presumably don't care or are too busy to make time for due diligence. Either way, it's a poor excuse for a business model to operate under that could put you out of luck if you were guilty of buyer's negligence.

Sorry but I strongly disagree with you. I said that the majority of end-users aren't reading these sites, and therefore aren't aware of potential issues with various products. I didn't say anything about the manufacturers, and now I will.

*All* of the four major video camera manufacturers, Sony, Panasonic, Canon and JVC, follow the discussions on this site (and others) very closely. I know for a fact that one of them has an employee whose job description involves surfing DV Info Net every Monday morning. Two of them have either a product manager or someone at nearly that level actually posting here on the forums. One of them prints a bound copy of pertinent DV Info Net discussions every week for boardroom review. They do this because they are keenly interested in their customers, and these web sites give them a very convenient avenue of research. It's only too bad that the online communities haven't attracted a bigger part of the market they're serving -- the manufacturers would love for that to happen, because they would have a much better understanding of the demographics they're dealing with.

All of the major hardware and software makers really do care about this stuff and they're definitely making the time for due diligence. After all, it's in their best interest to do so. They want to sell and keep on selling, so they'll do whatever they can to get to know their customers better, and the internet provides one of the best ways to do that. Trust me, the manufacturers follow these online communities very closely, it is very much a part of their business model these days and if they didn't care about it then they wouldn't be in business for very long. My point was that not enough of the end users, not enough of the customers are following it. Here at DV Info Net we have close to 20,000 members (well, maybe 3/4 of them have been active within the past two years), and that's not even the tip of the iceberg for this market... that's barely a tiny percentage of the total number of regular customers and potential buyers in the market that DV Info Net represents. And a lot of our members are also members of other online communities as well... so among the top five sites for digital video, there's a chunky core of the same people who are frequently involved with most or all of them. It's only a very small group overall that are regularly talking on the web, with a ring of silent lurkers who regularly follow. But it's certainly the most vocal and definitely the best-read portion of that market, so you better believe that all the manufacturers care a great deal about what goes on with them.

Robert Castiglione · September 29th, 2005, 05:27 PM

"the JVC rep for my dealership discussed the split screen issue with us today. He acknowledged that some models early in the production run experienced this issue and that newer models now being shipped should work fine."

This suggests that JVC is able to fix the problem right now. The concern that purchasers of the models "early in the production run" who have the problem is that they will simply be left to fight their own battles and that the rumour of a download are just fiction.

It also suggests that I might be wrong in my assumption that an exchange camera would now have the same problem if it has been fixed.

Is anyone out there able to say with certainty that JVC is in fact working on some solution for those experiencing the difficulty?

Rob

John Vincent · September 29th, 2005, 05:31 PM

Quote:

*All* of the four major video camera manufacturers, Sony, Panasonic, Canon and JVC, follow the discussions on this site (and others) very closely.

Well, I would think so... As far as sites like this and DVXuser, I assure you that negative information about a camera plays a big role on the the most important buyer I know of - me. And there are a lot of 'me's' out there.

I know that the authorized dealers in my area certainly are aware of sites like this one, because their clients (at least myself), inform them of what's said. And they, of course, are ulitmately effected by this.

It is very simple - no official announcement + new reports of split-screen effect ='s I and a lot of other potential buyers will not be buying the JVC - and, again, this is impacted by the fact that there are/will be several choices available. Come on JVC, if you're reading this, say something - anything - to explain what's really going on with what looks like could be a great camera otherwise....
John

Guy Barwood · September 29th, 2005, 06:24 PM

I agree. It doesn't matter what a single rep says to one person in a private discussion, thats not going to make JVC in my country commit to the same level of service. A public announcement is needed before anyone who is aware of the problem is going to be satisfied they will have the issue sorted.

As for "some models early in the production run experienced this issue and that newer models now being shipped should work fine.", it just doesn't seem to be the case. People like Steve Mullen who have only just recieved their camera from backorders in the US are still getting cameras with this problem. I have yet to hear a single person say they could not reproduce the problem with their camera.

Anhar Miah · September 29th, 2005, 08:00 PM

Thats really cool Chris, you say they follow closely hey? :) ok *cough" 2/3" *cough* hehe.

I was wondering since the split screen is due to differences in voltage/current levels casuing black level to shift? could this not be some how fixed in post via some kind of clever script/plugin that dynamically shifts the LHS vs RHS levels to keep them in sync?

yes, I know is not a full solution but, its just a thought.

Anhar

Jiri Bakala · September 29th, 2005, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anhar Miah

could this not be some how fixed in post via some kind of clever script/plugin that dynamically shifts the LHS vs RHS levels to keep them in sync?

Don't even go there Anhar! That would make the ultimate 'fix it in post' on the top 10!

John Mitchell · September 30th, 2005, 01:52 AM

Well I just wanted to say that I researched this camera heavily before buying it, mainly on this forum, but on others as well. I was aware of the split screen issue, lens quality and other foibles of this camera.

I still bought it (on the grounds that if the split screen was a huge issue I'd simply return it) and I'm very pleased with it's performance. The split screen has not been a problem (barely noticeable at +9, slight even at +18). I may have one of the better units in this respect, but I'm hearing less complaints from actual owners which I think means JVC is slowly getting on top of this problem. Sure the lens may not be as good as some of the high end broadcast lenses Fujinon make but you have to weigh all these things up against budget. I've seen plenty of lenses that cost more than this whole camera kit (eg the wide angle designed specifically for this camera).

If you like the flexibility of a manual lens, a 16x zoom (as opposed to a 13x fixed zoom lens), true progressive at a budget price then this is a good starting point. I'm sure JVC will introduce an improved model in the near future and I'm equally sure Sony and Panasonic won't follow JVC's lead on the lens unless they're dragged kicking and screaming by flagging sales (no sign of that yet). Ain't competition grand.

It seems to me that a lot of people are only too happy to say they're not buying the camera because of x or y. But you can hear the frustration in their posts because they know, that right now, it's the only camera in this budget range that has the features they really want. It isn't perfect, yes it has a design defect (due to new technology) - but it's an excellent compromise between price and functionality.

John Mitchell · September 30th, 2005, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I know of no future firmware fixes for this problem. And, I have to wonder how Panasonic will solve this? But, it does explain why Sony and Canon don't offer 24p. :)

You may be right Steve. I must admit I was surprised that the JVC rep told me they were trying to fix this in firmware, as I assumed that something as basic as a balanced supply between two circuits would have to be done in hardware. But he assured me that was one of the solutions JVC were working on.

I do know that newer cameras are coming out with updated firmware, as I already know one user with newer firmware than mine.

Re: Panasonic - there are probably better ways to scan the CCD than in two vertical halves - even if you scanned it in an checkerboard (every alternate pixel - but at the same instance in time) and put the two halves together as a progressive frame, then a difference in black levels would be much harder to pick. Or you go back to basics and design a faster method.

September 29th, 2005, 01:30 PM	#19
Jiri Bakala Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kelowna BC Canada Posts: 706	I stronly disagree. People might be too busy to casually 'surf' but I am pretty sure that when they are about to buy this kind of camera (or any other slightly more expensive equipment) they will do their research. Just think about who are the people buying this gear; mostly technically savvy guys (no offence ladies out there). Even dealers may point you to sites like this (happened to me just the other day). In my oppinion JVC (and other manufactures) need to pay attantion to sites like this one and respond to their customer base in a direct and honest fashion. Remember, most people will forgive you if you honestly admit a mistake and try to do something about it but will hold grudges forever if you lie and cheat. __________________ www.ascentfilms.com

September 29th, 2005, 03:02 PM	#22
Terry Nixon Texas Media Systems DVi Sponsor Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 289	Split Screen Issue, my JVC reps response the JVC rep for my dealership discussed the split screen issue with us today. He acknowledged that some models early in the production run experienced this issue and that newer models now being shipped should work fine. He indicated that if we sold a GY-HD100U that has the split screen issue, that we as the dealer should DOA it with JVC and provide a new unit to the customer. JVC would then exchange the defective unit with the dealer. JVC also has a "Perfect Experience" policy that provides for new replacement products directly from JVC for DOA and related performance issues. I have had customers that were out of state use this policy to speed an exchange on a DOA. Here's the link: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/pepolicy.jsp Terry Nixon Texas Media Systems

September 29th, 2005, 08:00 PM	#27
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	interesting Thats really cool Chris, you say they follow closely hey? :) ok cough" 2/3" cough* hehe. I was wondering since the split screen is due to differences in voltage/current levels casuing black level to shift? could this not be some how fixed in post via some kind of clever script/plugin that dynamically shifts the LHS vs RHS levels to keep them in sync? yes, I know is not a full solution but, its just a thought. Anhar

September 29th, 2005, 01:05 AM	#17
Robert Castiglione Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fremantle, Western Australia Posts: 253	The real test for me will come in November when I will be shooting a drama for two weeks with the camera under all sorts of lighting conditions. If the camera performs under those conditions, I will feel fine about it. Rob

September 29th, 2005, 02:42 PM	#21
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	Agree with Chris and Spot. Make no mistake. We are a small subset of uber-camera-nerds. Most people simply don't care about this stuff to this degree. If I DP a shoot with the HD100 and I manipulate the shots and lighting so it's shortcomings are not seen, then everybody I work with will think it's an amazing camera...and they'll be right to a degree. All I know is I'm better off with it than the DVX, and that's all I care about for the time being.

September 29th, 2005, 05:27 PM	#24
Robert Castiglione Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fremantle, Western Australia Posts: 253	"the JVC rep for my dealership discussed the split screen issue with us today. He acknowledged that some models early in the production run experienced this issue and that newer models now being shipped should work fine." This suggests that JVC is able to fix the problem right now. The concern that purchasers of the models "early in the production run" who have the problem is that they will simply be left to fight their own battles and that the rumour of a download are just fiction. It also suggests that I might be wrong in my assumption that an exchange camera would now have the same problem if it has been fixed. Is anyone out there able to say with certainty that JVC is in fact working on some solution for those experiencing the difficulty? Rob

September 29th, 2005, 06:24 PM	#26
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	I agree. It doesn't matter what a single rep says to one person in a private discussion, thats not going to make JVC in my country commit to the same level of service. A public announcement is needed before anyone who is aware of the problem is going to be satisfied they will have the issue sorted. As for "some models early in the production run experienced this issue and that newer models now being shipped should work fine.", it just doesn't seem to be the case. People like Steve Mullen who have only just recieved their camera from backorders in the US are still getting cameras with this problem. I have yet to hear a single person say they could not reproduce the problem with their camera.

September 30th, 2005, 01:52 AM	#29
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Well I just wanted to say that I researched this camera heavily before buying it, mainly on this forum, but on others as well. I was aware of the split screen issue, lens quality and other foibles of this camera. I still bought it (on the grounds that if the split screen was a huge issue I'd simply return it) and I'm very pleased with it's performance. The split screen has not been a problem (barely noticeable at +9, slight even at +18). I may have one of the better units in this respect, but I'm hearing less complaints from actual owners which I think means JVC is slowly getting on top of this problem. Sure the lens may not be as good as some of the high end broadcast lenses Fujinon make but you have to weigh all these things up against budget. I've seen plenty of lenses that cost more than this whole camera kit (eg the wide angle designed specifically for this camera). If you like the flexibility of a manual lens, a 16x zoom (as opposed to a 13x fixed zoom lens), true progressive at a budget price then this is a good starting point. I'm sure JVC will introduce an improved model in the near future and I'm equally sure Sony and Panasonic won't follow JVC's lead on the lens unless they're dragged kicking and screaming by flagging sales (no sign of that yet). Ain't competition grand. It seems to me that a lot of people are only too happy to say they're not buying the camera because of x or y. But you can hear the frustration in their posts because they know, that right now, it's the only camera in this budget range that has the features they really want. It isn't perfect, yes it has a design defect (due to new technology) - but it's an excellent compromise between price and functionality.