Call to JVC - split screen

Mel Namnama · October 4th, 2005, 09:19 PM

Hello Everyone,
I was shooting test clips today using 1/4 ND, no gain, f4-8, shutter 1/60...I had the dreaded split screen show up in some of the test clips. I had ample light..Is it just me? Has anyone had the same problem?

Mel Namnama · October 6th, 2005, 06:56 PM

Okay Guys,
JVC's Pro Division referred me to a 1-800 number for service on the split screen & verticle mid screen red line, got alot of automated messages...very frustrating. I finally gave in and delivered the camera myself to JVC's repair center in Pine Brook, NJ. Strangely, the employee said that although he was told to expect "a batch" of defective cameras, I was the first one to send it in (to their location ??) He said he'd have the techs look at it with an est. wait of 7-10 days.. I'd be very surprised if I get the same unit back....we'll see.

Heath McKnight · October 6th, 2005, 07:34 PM

Hmm, interesting. Defective...

heath

Chris Hurd · October 6th, 2005, 08:06 PM

Mel, we're all very interested, so please keep us advised on how this goes. Thanks,

Steve Mullen · October 6th, 2005, 09:55 PM

I'm glad that folks now are confirming that the amount of light seems critical in this issue.

In my examples, I noted that on a low-light pix (say 0 to 30IRE) verses an adequately lit (0 to 100IRE) pix suffer very different fates if, for example, a tiny 3IRE Black Level error between the L and R sidees is present.

In first case, it is a 10% error -- in the second, it is only a 1% error.

What can create the such a tiny Black Level error?

1) Not correctly white balancing. If you simply aim the camera at a white wall you may indeed see the split. But upon Manual WB, it should disssappear. And, WB is clearly inaccurate at low light levels which compounds the issue.

2) Gross levels of smear on one side. This is very clear in the sunset shot. No one would use a shot with that much smear. It never should have been published as an example of anything but gross over-exposure.

3) Too much noise -- which is not simply a matter of absolute gain. Some tones more clearly suffer from noise. But, the rule of +12dB, or less, works for me. I can evoke the same amount of SSE at 0dB as at +18dB. I don't think one MUST avoid high gain.

4) Defective units. I keep wondering HOW bad units are getting past QC in Japan? If things can go wrong at the factory -- they can go wrong at the incoming inspection. So it's possible that some percentage of the units will always be defective. (A vertical red line sure sounds like a very defective unit.) Given this, what really counts is that a company will -- without a hassle -- make things right. And, while one can wish things were different, if JVC steps-up the way Canon did, the negative PR will go away as bad units are quickly replaced.

Jiri Bakala · October 6th, 2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

2) Gross levels of smear on one side. This is very clear in the sunset shot. No one would use a shot with that much smear. It never should have been published as an example of anything but gross over-exposure.

You are not talking about this, are you?
http://www.time-code-media.de/split.jpg
Which sunset shot is it?

Steve Mullen · October 6th, 2005, 11:38 PM

I don't see that as a sunset. It looks like the SSE you get when you have not correctly color balanced.

There is a series of shots of a setting sun over a pier where the sun is a ball of super bright light with a mear the width of the sun going downward.

Michael Maier · October 7th, 2005, 01:04 AM

So Mel, you have a NTSC model and have the split screen even when there's enough light? F4-f8 sure seems like enough light.

Robert Castiglione · October 7th, 2005, 06:18 AM

For those experiencing SSE you should definitely try using only manual white balance (as recommended above) - I have been doing so and it looks very promising at the moment for sharply reducing incidence of the problem. I will keep testing.

Rob

Jiri Bakala · October 7th, 2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

There is a series of shots of a setting sun over a pier where the sun is a ball of super bright light with a mear the width of the sun going downward.

I remember those, they didn't seem overexposed at all to me. Yes, the sun itself was of course hot but a sunset is a pretty common shot, especially for nature documentaries and we need the flexibility to be able to shoot such shots.

Mel Namnama · October 7th, 2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

So Mel, you have a NTSC model and have the split screen even when there's enough light? F4-f8 sure seems like enough light.

Yep, I believe I had adequate lighting..What concerned me more was the faint but consistently present mid screen verticle red band. Once I keyed on to it, I saw it everywhere in varying degrees...different shots/settings & tape. Is this a free sefx from JVC?...There's no button on the camera for it. I prefer adding all effects on my NLE. I returned the camera in hopes that the company will remove the "special" feature.

Steve Mullen · October 7th, 2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

I remember those, they didn't seem overexposed at all to me. Yes, the sun itself was of course hot but a sunset is a pretty common shot, especially for nature documentaries and we need the flexibility to be able to shoot such shots.

When have you seen a pro shoot a sunset with vertical smear? Never!

Any time you get smear that wide from the sun -- the shot is over exposed by definition.

To do a sunset correctly one must bias the exposure for the sun which means the beach would be much darker. This guy likely did an AVERAGE exposure.

In any case, the shot could never have been used because of the smear -- the SSE was irrelevant.

Stephen L. Noe · October 7th, 2005, 01:04 PM

I remember the shot. The white balance was off as well.

Christopher C. Murphy · October 7th, 2005, 01:36 PM

As many of us were (or still are) former JVC HD10 users - I've read this entire thread and thought about the times we all talked about new firmware for the HD10. We really wanted it and asked for it, but never got it. Granted, the "limitations" weren't hidden when we bought the camera.

It's strange, but my HD10 had that horrible streak too...except it was green. It showed up when shooting anything bright like chrome or the sun.

I don't think it's to much to ask for them to stop by here more than once a year and talk about their defective or limited products.

The only people who deserve beers are the people trying to make a living with defective and limited gear!!!!!!!!!

Steve Mullen · October 7th, 2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher C. Murphy

It's strange, but my HD10 had that horrible streak too...except it was green. It showed up when shooting anything bright like chrome or the sun.!

This streak is called "vertical smear" and is present on EVERY "IT" CCD camcorder. It is inherent it IT CCDs which are used in almost every camcorder.

Naturally, the higher the pixel count and the smaller the CCD -- the greater probability of smear. It can be any color.

Over time, CCD smear rating is getting better and in some more expensive camcorders is now about -128dB.

To imply it has anything to do with JVC is, frankly, to reveal a lack of experience.

October 4th, 2005, 09:19 PM	#76
Mel Namnama Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 25	nasty screen split using ND 1/4 Hello Everyone, I was shooting test clips today using 1/4 ND, no gain, f4-8, shutter 1/60...I had the dreaded split screen show up in some of the test clips. I had ample light..Is it just me? Has anyone had the same problem?

October 6th, 2005, 06:56 PM	#77
Mel Namnama Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 25	JVC Service Center/ finally gave in Okay Guys, JVC's Pro Division referred me to a 1-800 number for service on the split screen & verticle mid screen red line, got alot of automated messages...very frustrating. I finally gave in and delivered the camera myself to JVC's repair center in Pine Brook, NJ. Strangely, the employee said that although he was told to expect "a batch" of defective cameras, I was the first one to send it in (to their location ??) He said he'd have the techs look at it with an est. wait of 7-10 days.. I'd be very surprised if I get the same unit back....we'll see.

October 6th, 2005, 07:34 PM	#78
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Hmm, interesting. Defective... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 6th, 2005, 08:06 PM	#79
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Mel, we're all very interested, so please keep us advised on how this goes. Thanks, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 6th, 2005, 09:55 PM	#80
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	I'm glad that folks now are confirming that the amount of light seems critical in this issue. In my examples, I noted that on a low-light pix (say 0 to 30IRE) verses an adequately lit (0 to 100IRE) pix suffer very different fates if, for example, a tiny 3IRE Black Level error between the L and R sidees is present. In first case, it is a 10% error -- in the second, it is only a 1% error. What can create the such a tiny Black Level error? 1) Not correctly white balancing. If you simply aim the camera at a white wall you may indeed see the split. But upon Manual WB, it should disssappear. And, WB is clearly inaccurate at low light levels which compounds the issue. 2) Gross levels of smear on one side. This is very clear in the sunset shot. No one would use a shot with that much smear. It never should have been published as an example of anything but gross over-exposure. 3) Too much noise -- which is not simply a matter of absolute gain. Some tones more clearly suffer from noise. But, the rule of +12dB, or less, works for me. I can evoke the same amount of SSE at 0dB as at +18dB. I don't think one MUST avoid high gain. 4) Defective units. I keep wondering HOW bad units are getting past QC in Japan? If things can go wrong at the factory -- they can go wrong at the incoming inspection. So it's possible that some percentage of the units will always be defective. (A vertical red line sure sounds like a very defective unit.) Given this, what really counts is that a company will -- without a hassle -- make things right. And, while one can wish things were different, if JVC steps-up the way Canon did, the negative PR will go away as bad units are quickly replaced. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; October 7th, 2005 at 03:31 AM.

October 6th, 2005, 11:38 PM	#82
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	I don't see that as a sunset. It looks like the SSE you get when you have not correctly color balanced. There is a series of shots of a setting sun over a pier where the sun is a ball of super bright light with a mear the width of the sun going downward. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; October 7th, 2005 at 04:09 AM.

October 7th, 2005, 01:04 AM	#83
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	So Mel, you have a NTSC model and have the split screen even when there's enough light? F4-f8 sure seems like enough light.

October 7th, 2005, 06:18 AM	#84
Robert Castiglione Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fremantle, Western Australia Posts: 253	For those experiencing SSE you should definitely try using only manual white balance (as recommended above) - I have been doing so and it looks very promising at the moment for sharply reducing incidence of the problem. I will keep testing. Rob

October 7th, 2005, 01:04 PM	#88
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	I remember the shot. The white balance was off as well.

October 7th, 2005, 01:36 PM	#89
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	As many of us were (or still are) former JVC HD10 users - I've read this entire thread and thought about the times we all talked about new firmware for the HD10. We really wanted it and asked for it, but never got it. Granted, the "limitations" weren't hidden when we bought the camera. It's strange, but my HD10 had that horrible streak too...except it was green. It showed up when shooting anything bright like chrome or the sun. I don't think it's to much to ask for them to stop by here more than once a year and talk about their defective or limited products. The only people who deserve beers are the people trying to make a living with defective and limited gear!!!!!!!!! __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer Last edited by Christopher C. Murphy; October 7th, 2005 at 03:51 PM.